Social programs are the polar opposite of how the US should be spending its money if it wants to outcompete China. Social programs both reduce the incentive for Americans to work while also depriving research/infrastructure projects of funding.

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csnover 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Social programs to help towns experiencing economic depression would inject money, training, education, etc. which would create opportunity for new growth and development in areas with a low cost of living. When people are too busy just trying to survive, they are not going to be working on inventing the next big thing, and they certainly are not going to support tax dollars going toward investments for tomorrow.

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jpgvm 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Pretty much everywhere has proved that ensuring people have a place to shelter and eat doesn't stop them from wanting to do something with their lives. It's the oldest and most wrong talking point from this debate.

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bradthebeaverfa 3 hours ago | parent [-]

This is completely wrong. A majority of people only work because it's necessary to put food on the table and purchase other necessities. You know this is true because you can see how many of them choose to do nothing productive with their free time. Basically nobody is performing research in their free time.

	▲	bruce511 3 hours ago \| parent \| next [-]
		I concur, a majority are not productive most of the time. However a majority is far from everyone. Leaving aside for the moment people working multiple jobs for whom free time is a luxury. Leaving aside working parents who are also raising children who choose to spend that time with them. Of the rest, though we do see some productive outlets. Open Source Software for example being perhaps the poster child for work done without return. Or what about those who volunteer? Perhaps in a church context or charity context or whatever. Or all those with a side hustle, selling home-made goods in weekend markets. Some of that to earn more, some to exercise their creativity. Yes, in countries where there are sufficient social nets that unemployed people can survive some choose not to work. And yet the overall unemployment numbers in those countries is pretty low. So maybe "majority" isn't really the right term?
	▲	asdff 3 hours ago \| parent \| prev \| next [-]
		People need down time, even researchers.
	▲	vinyl7 3 hours ago \| parent \| prev [-]
		I work on hobby projects when I'm not burned out from working + getting all my other stuff done in the remaining 4 hours of the day I have left.

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Buttons840 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Doesn't China have better social programs? They have universal healthcare.

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seanmcdirmid 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

If you work in China, you get their universal healthcare but you still need a private insurance policy. It’s hard to explain though, you wouldn’t be completely up sh*t creek without a private policy, but some things become really inconvenient, and the standard of care is different (bring your own nurse in the public plan).

China sort has welfare but the hukou system means most people who need it don't qualify in the city they live in.

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bradthebeaverfa 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

No? Chinese people have to work 6 days a week for a lower quality of living than a minimum wage American.

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Buttons840 3 hours ago | parent [-]

China has labor laws similar to the US. 40 hour work weeks, extra pay for overtime or for having to work weekends. They just don't enforce them very well. That's what my research tells me anyway, am I wrong?

	▲	olyjohn 2 hours ago \| parent [-]
		You are not wrong about the laws, but people are working in factories doing 12 hour days 7 days a week. Yes they get overtime, but that's because you can't even afford to live with a roommate in run down company dorms on a standard 5 day work week. Its still slave labor over there. This amount of work nets workers about $1000USD per month, and this is in foreign owned factories which are much more regulated than the locally owned ones.

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mc32 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

No they don't:

If you work, you automatically get enrolled in a hybrid healthcare system (state+private)

If you are young or elderly you get automatic coverage.

If you are working age but have no job --then you get basic healthcare (not comprehensive)

Lots of people who can afford will buy private insurance on top if they have a serious illness (basic healthcare is not comprehensive)

Also copays and high deductibles. People can end up footing 20 to 50% of their medical bills (out of pocket).

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Buttons840 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If it is about "incentivizing people to work" and getting warm butts in chairs or out swinging hammers... well, how are we going to compete with a country that has 4x the number of warm bodies?

We can't compete with China via the number of people we have working.

We need to build a functioning society instead of a group of rugged individual capitalists who only come together when we need to help out the wealthy with a bail out or tax break.

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Daishiman 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's amazing how people think this is true when by every known metric, people who are given a minimally comfortable life almost always end up being far more productive members of society than those who are not.

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kelseyfrog 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

That is why China is losing to the US. China massively more social programs than the US and it has reduced their economy to shambles because no one has incentive.

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edg5000 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Shambles?

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bradthebeaverfa 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

China forces its citizens to work 12 hours a day, 6 days a week. The idea that it has better social programs than the US is utterly laughable.

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nmfisher 2 hours ago | parent [-]

> China forces its citizens to work 12 hours a day, 6 days a week.

As someone who lived there for 5 years, this is laughable and totally untrue.

I'm guessing you heard that some tech companies have a 996 policy and inferred that the government is somehow imposing this on every single worker in China.

	▲	kelseyfrog an hour ago \| parent [-]
		As someone whose only idea of China is what I see in western media and what I project onto it based on my deepest fears, it is 100% true.