Remix.run Logo
▲ Sticky alpine flower confirms Darwin's 150-year-old carnivorous plant prediction(phys.org)
66 points by maxall4 3 days ago | 26 comments
▲salviati 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I thought a "prediction" was something about the future. But Darwin, if I understand correctly, classified the plant as carnivorous. As it is the title makes you think the plant turned carnivorous since Darwin made his prediction; and make you think Darwin said "This plant will soon become carnivore". But what happened is that his statement has been confirmed, not that the plant changed.

▲xoa an hour ago | parent | next [-]

From the second paragraph in the article:

>In 1875, Charles Darwin posited that some species from the genus Saxifraga—a group of flowering plants typically found in alpine environments—may be carnivorous because of their sticky glandular hairs, which can trap insects. However, there has been a lack of conclusive evidence to support this hypothesis.

Can you clarify how you got "But Darwin, if I understand correctly, classified the plant as carnivorous" out of that? Because it sounds like Darwin observed that there existed this feature on the plants that appeared adapted to carnivorous behavior, but didn't actually observe it in action (and of course he didn't have isotopic tracking to provide hard proof of molecular absorption either). So it was a hypothesis based on feature observation, and now someone has gotten around to proving that as fact via experiment. Not something radically new in terms of technique sure, could have been proved long ago in principle (this sort of tracking was core to what settled the original DNA/protein genetics debates), but still fun to read about and nice to see more getting learned about the species in our world.

▲kzrdude 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think prediction is about something you don't know. What happens in the future is that you might come to know.

For example, we predict that there is gold in X location.

▲gwbas1c 19 minutes ago | parent [-]

When I read the first part of Origin of Species, Darwin made predictions where, I thought, "oh, that's just genetics and DNA." (Of course, he didn't know at the time.)

▲jdiff 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

We have been able to predict properties of elements that had not been isolated yet. Your definition is too narrow.

▲legulere 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Darwin probably didn’t know this exact species but only other species of the same family and predicted that there are/were some members of the family that are carnivorous

▲itsalwaysgood an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Prediction is an appropriate word to use when you are stating something you believe to be true about something unknown.

'The sun will rise tomorrow' is a pretty weak prediction, but we don't truly know that the sun will rise tomorrow. However, we can be pretty sure it will based on probability, history, likelihood, from our own past observations. You wouldn't need much convincing to believe the prediction.

'The sun will not rise tomorrow' is a much stronger prediction, because it's a 'wilder' less believable claim with very huge impact. Nobody would believe the statement without proof.

A hypothesis, is a testable statement about a predicted outcome. You could hypothesize something like: 'The Earth's core will stop due to XYZ event, which will stop Earth's rotation. The sun will not rise tomorrow.' Then you go about designing experiments (or you observe and show something that is measurable, like some asteroid on a path close to Earth's) to prove the statement.

From the article: 'Charles Darwin posited that some species from the genus Saxifraga—a group of flowering plants typically found in alpine environments—may be carnivorous because of their sticky glandular hairs, which can trap insects'.

'Posited' is to suggest, assume, or put forward an idea, theory, or fact as a foundational basis for an argument or investigation. 'Posited' isn't quite as strong as the word prediction, it's more like a sensible suggestion for further study. Darwin had observed carnivorous behavior in other plants with sticky hairs, and suggested the behavior may be observed in another plant as well.

He didn't make a strong claim like: 'The genus Saxifraga plants are carnivorous because they have sticky hairs that trap insects.' This sort of claim suggests that plants with sticky hairs always trap insects for nutrients, and frankly, he couldn't know that's true without observing every plant with sticky hairs.

What if there are plants with sticky hairs that use the stickiness as a defensive measure instead?

Should the article have used a different word than 'predicted'? Probably, but it wouldn't attract as many viewers, and 'predicted' sort of lends Darwin deserved credibility.

▲gilrain an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

> I thought a "prediction" was something about the future.

This is not correct. A prediction is about something unknown — maybe because it is in the future, or maybe because of some other reason.

The headline is well written and clear.

▲chicken-stew 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Saxifrage is one of my favourite subjects for macro photography and I often noticed the same glandular appendages in plants here in W.EU as well. They’re sparser in number than in your typical insectivorous plant, but have this easily recognisable elongated mushroom shape.

▲sandworm101 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

And there are carnivorous trees, even entire forests:

https://hakaimagazine.com/features/salmon-trees/

"up to 50 percent of the total nitrogen the trees use comes from salmon."

https://pacificwild.org/salmon-feed-forests/

"resident bears have been known to carry over 6,200 kg of salmon from the rivers to the woods, eating two thirds of the protein and leaving behind nearly 2,000 kg of salmon remains. Bears play a critical role in transporting nutrients from freshwater to the terrestrial environment, spreading the food source to other species and the forest floor. Decaying salmon carcasses are distributed everywhere post spawning, allowing nutrient rich soil to provide for the dense plant life of the rainforest"

▲birdsongs 2 hours ago | parent [-]

This is really interesting, but they're not carnivorous. The decaying salmon deposit nutrients in the soil. Carnivorous plants actually digest the insects directly for nutrients, usually because the soil is inhospitable.

▲david-gpu an hour ago | parent [-]

Yeah, I think it's the absence of traits evolved to attract, trap, and digest salmon that are all missing here.

▲kortex an hour ago | parent [-]

I got really excited for a carnivorous salmon-fishing tree there for a second. I could envision how roots might evolve to jut into the water, and develop some one-way geometry that fish get trapped in.

▲pvaldes 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

An interesting part of this is that Carnivorous plants belong mainly to two evolutive lineages. To simplify it, a main group is distantly related with Rosmarinus and Olive trees and the other main group is a distant cousin of Pinks and Cacti.

This introduces a totally different group of carnivorous in the order Saxifragales, that includes Blackcurrants, Peonies and Aloe (sometimes people confuse Aloe with a cacti, but Succulents aren't cacti).

So the plants became carnivorous at least three times to adapt to specially hard places, and they need very humid places to do it.

▲dgently7 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

step 1 invent science step 2 iteratively use it until you can prove a 150 year old theory about plant that eats bugs for nitrogen.

hard not to think its so cool that we have the capability to do stuff like this.

▲skeezyboi 5 hours ago | parent [-]

did Darwin ever define fitness beyond survival? it doesnt seem to have any predictive power if you have to see what dies and survives before you can say if theyre fit or not

▲adrianN 3 hours ago | parent [-]

The important part is not survival, it’s passing on your genes. Rocks are very good at survival, but most are poor at passing on their structure.

▲wolfi1 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

alpine regions in China? I guess I must revisit my Geography lessons

▲EdwardDiego 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Looks like it grows in the north of Yunnan, and boy, this is an impressive mountain: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:%E6%A2%85%E9%87%8C%E9%9B%...

> The mountains are highest in the north where they reach more than 5,000 m

▲pvaldes 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> alpine regions in China?

Alpine ecosystems are an ecological category, named after the Alps, but not restricted to it. In the same way as we say that California has a Mediterranean climate.

▲Reubachi 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

China has the highest number of peaks over 20k, by far.

▲close04 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Alpine has multiple meanings. Some of them are generically relating to tall mountains, or for plants living above the timber line.

▲metalman 4 hours ago | parent [-]

there are plants that may be classified as alpine liveing in certain relativly low spots that escaped bieng glaciated such as pockets in the Cape Breton highlands(max 1200' asl),and preserve species that thrived in much colder, dryer conditions, and who's closest relatives are found thousands of miles away in mountainous regions. Not sure what Darwin would have to say, though he was exceptionaly concervative and precise in detailing and defing his scientific concepts, and prefered multiple proofs of his ideas and was carefull to concider and include all possible counter arguments and deal with them upfront. Reading 'the voyage of the beagle' gives another side of his personality, less constrained by the needs of scientific rigor.

▲ahoef 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

There's also Japanese Alps. Alpine has become a type.

▲echelon_musk 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Sticky glandular hairs on Saxifraga

They look like pistils.

▲m4tthumphrey 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

"View ad to continue"

How about no.