| ▲ | taylortbb 3 hours ago |
| > They should lift incomes, not suppress prices I think this misses the psychology of inflation. If wages go up 20%, and prices go up 15%, everyone is better off and got a 5% raise, right? Go poll people that experienced that and they won't tell you they're celebrating being 5% richer, they'll tell you they're outraged about the 15% inflation. Psychologically they'll believe they earned that 20% raise through hard work. Putting in extra hours to get that promotion. But then the inflation robbed them of their 20% raise, and turned it into a measly 5% raise. They'll be outraged. Politicians get this. No one will credit politicians for raising average wages, people will believe they earned their raise themselves. But there's lots of votes available for lowering prices. |
|
| ▲ | manlymuppet 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| I think this is part of the article's point. Raising incomes to combat affordability problems is far better for everyone involved than lowering prices artificially. But like you said politicians get less credit for the the former than they do the latter, and thus we have the current situation of continued bad policy decisions. The article isn't denying that lowering prices is politically effective--I think that's undeniable at this point--just that doing so is probably the wrong call. |
| |
| ▲ | taylortbb 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Fair, it does touch on that issue towards the end. But I think it deserves more than a couple sentences acknowledging (but proposing no solutions to) the issue in the last paragraph, given IMO it's basically the entire issue with their proposal. | |
| ▲ | 627467 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Raising incomes to combat affordability problems is far better for everyone involved than lowering prices artificially. This has been tried in many latam countries in the past 15-20years with Inflation expectations getting out of control as result | | |
| ▲ | manlymuppet an hour ago | parent [-] | | Well it's been "tried" essentially everywhere. Making sure wages rise on pace has been a policy position of essentially every liberal country on Earth for over a century. To say it doesn't work using Latin American countries as an example, is like saying Russia already "tried" capitalism in the 90s. This kind of policy is so broad, widespread, and so often poorly implemented that it's impossible to use a single example as proof of ineffectiveness. If you're looking for a positive example though, most people agree that the Scandinavian nations have done pretty well keeping wages on pace. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexicurity |
| |
| ▲ | idiotsecant an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | That also ends in everyone being paid sleventy billion dollars a minute and a banana costing more dollars than the number of atoms in the universe. This strikes me as a symptom of an unsustainable system. | |
| ▲ | ihsw 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [dead] |
|
|
| ▲ | johnnyanmac an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It's partly because a 20% raise isn't a 20% raise. Even at the most modest tax bracket (above poverty) that will be reduced down to 17%. So outpacing groceries by 2% doesn't really feel good at all. Percentages also don't matter as much when you break down raw numbers. A 20% (ignoring taxes) raise when your take home pay is $3000 disappears very quickly into your $6000 credit card debt, or maybe your $700/month car loan, or your $400/month student loans. People making that extra $600 more don't get a breath of relief, they get closer to the surface to breathe at all. >No one will credit politicians for raising average wages, people will believe they earned their raise themselves. And this is why we're doomed to fail at this rate. We're in 4 entirely different crises that are entirely above any individual worker's head, but somehow our solution is to just grind our way out. Maybe do some gambling (or sorry, "prediction markets")to get ahead. We're trying to dig out of a hole we didn't make and we just keep shuffling sand around instead of actually progressing. |
| |
| ▲ | thatfrenchguy 19 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Debt is where inflation is awesome though, if you have 10% inflation and your wages raise 10%, your car loan and student loans become irrelevant quickly. | | |
| ▲ | bottom999mottob 6 minutes ago | parent [-] | | In theory yes, if the average person understood how to leverage debt on things like buying a mortgage 20 years ago. In practice, most people will never escape the shackles of perpetual debt. |
|
|
|
| ▲ | YZF 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The article is behind a paywall :( Having lived through hyper-inflation the only thing that got that under control was price controls. Wages going up can't stop inflation - they fuel inflation. Inflation psychology is that your money is going to become worthless so you don't save it, you spend it, which keeps prices going up. It wrecks havoc on loans and debt as well. If you lent money with a fixed rate hyperinflation erases your returns. If you borrowed with a fixed rate your debt is effectively erased. Not to mention that governments in general don't control incomes. They can lower taxes (which is good IMO). They can pay government employees higher wages (which is hard to do when you lower taxes). At the end of the day governments make things better by making smart investments (or policies that enable smart investments) and make things worse by making bad investments (or policies that lead to bad investments). Everything else is second order effect. |
|
| ▲ | 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| [deleted] |
|
| ▲ | slopinthebag 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| i don't think this is really true. people don't complain about an abstract concept of inflation, they complain that they can no longer afford things they once could. if wages really did practically increase by 5%, they could afford more things and have more money left over at the end of the month, and that is what they would notice. politicians can't really affect wages the same way they can temporarily and artificially lower prices. but they also understand they need inflation to get elected, since you generally win elections by what you promise, not what you don't promise. |
|
| ▲ | underlipton 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| When wages go up 20%, they go up 50% for the top quintile and 5% average for everyone else (or whatever the math is, preserving the general proportion). When prices go up 15%, they go up 50% on mandatory expenses and 20% on discretionary spending, and the basket of goods used to index inflation for both is massaged until it looks like a 15% increase overall. That said, your assessment of the psychology of inflation is correct. It's just inapplicable here. The issue isn't people not understanding how much richer they are, because they're not. It's the intelligentsia and "elite" refusing to acknowledge the reality, because they'd then have to actually make material changes, which would reverse the siphoning of wealth from the middle class that they've been engaging in for at least the last 30 years. |
|
| ▲ | komali2 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Psychologically they'll believe they earned that 20% raise through hard work. Well, it's not just that. They've been telling us for decades that wages are alternatively a direct reflection of the value of our labor to the company, or, a price set by the market, depending on which is cheaper for the corporations. Kind of like when people say that UBI would simply instantly raise the price of all rent to match. Oh, really? The supply of rentable units will suddenly have decreased? The demand will suddenly have gone up? No? Odd that the "market set price" responded then. |
| |
| ▲ | ndriscoll 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Giving people cash would raise demand for rent and everything else, yes. |
|
|
| ▲ | AnimalMuppet 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Don't forget about taxes. Things cost 15% more, wages go up 20%, but the government takes a chunk of that 20%. Do you net even 15%? Depends on your tax bracket. |
| |
| ▲ | adjejmxbdjdn 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | If wages go up 20%, your post tax income should also go up by approximately 20%. The exceptions are if you enter a new tax bracket, but that only affects your marginal dollars, sns even then, the increase in tax brackets is just a few percent. In the U.S., you could also cross the SS/Medicare threshold and then suddenly your post tax earnings will go up more than your wage increase. Post-tax wage changes shouldn’t differ too much from the pre-tax wage increase. |
|
|
| ▲ | Sevii 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| There is no 'wages go up 20%'. That's not how the economy works. Wages are renegotiated on an annual basis and most people have to job hop to get anything close to a 20% raise. Inflation affects everyone rapidly. But to get the claimed wage increase people have to do work to find new jobs. |
| |
| ▲ | taylortbb 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > There is no 'wages go up 20%'. That's not how the economy works. Wages are renegotiated on an annual basis and most people have to job hop to get anything close to a 20% raise. The example was not meant to be a single year. Over the 2020-2024 timeframe we did see movements around that size (though the gap between average wages and inflation was smaller than my example, where I rounded the numbers). | |
| ▲ | manlymuppet 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It was only an example though, not a claim. I think you're being overly critical here. | | |
| ▲ | pasquinelli 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | yeah but it's not a great example, because actually wages aren't going up. maybe people would be able to psychologically handle inflation if it wasn't out-pacing wages. actually, now i think about it, that's not psychological at all, so the whole premise is kind of out the window, isn't it? | | |
| ▲ | manlymuppet 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Though I disagree with your conclusions, that part is irrelevant to whether the example works. An example is not bad simply because it's unrealistic. I'm sure you've heard plenty of examples which allow you to understand the main point without being perfectly representative. The point of this example in particular was to illustrate how wages work alongside inflation. As long as you understand the point--that inflation is relative--the specific numbers don't matter. | | |
| ▲ | pasquinelli an hour ago | parent [-] | | the point of the example was to illustrate how people fixate on the increased cost of living fron inflation and ignore their increased earnings, even if the increased earnings out-pace the inflation in their cost of living. my point is that's a bad example because we couldn't say that that's true given that the cost od living has been out-pacing wage inflation for a long time. so yeah, the example illustrates the idea, but it also underlines how the idea contradicts reality. |
|
|
| |
| ▲ | fcarraldo 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Outside of tech, seeking a 20% increase would be relatively uncommon. | | |
| ▲ | Loughla 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | I don't work in tech, and hopping jobs will get you 5% at most, usually. Maybe it's because I'm in the public sector and wages are public information? Either way, it always comes across as VERY out of touch when people here talk about massive increases just by changing jobs. | | |
| ▲ | alpinisme 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Not to mention how casually they talk about changing jobs. As though there weren’t pressures (and desires) keeping people at one workplace, and that those people form a large enough percentage of the population that their resentment of inflation has political force. |
|
| |
| ▲ | austin-cheney 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | That falsely turns your experience into an imagined generality. There was one year I received 3 raises at Travelocity and nearly doubled my compensation. I was hired as a web designer and after 3 months was involuntarily reassigned to a developer role and told to “figure it out”. I got a negative annual review that year and then ended up in Afghanistan on a military deployment. When I came back to Travelocity I was still classified as a developer but was reassigned from marketing to product development where to wages are higher, but I was earning as a junior designer. After eagerly looking for other internal jobs they gave me a raise to catch me up. Several months later I was promoted to a senior developer position and became the company A/B test engineer, which also came with a raise. A little after that another company gave me a better offer and Travelocity countered. This was like a million years ago. Because most of my career is in writing JavaScript if I want to continue to increase my wages I would have to do the most beginner level shit work because that is common expectation for JavaScript developers. | | |
| ▲ | Supermancho 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > That falsely turns your experience into an imagined generality. > There was one year I received 3 promotions at Travelocity and nearly doubled my compensation. I was hired as a web designer and after 3 months was involuntarily reassigned to a developer role and told to “figure it out”. This is obviously an aberration where you are doing exactly what you claimed the gp did. Moving jobs is the single best way to get a raise and has been for decades. Leveraging the experience at a company (which is relatively static) for a higher wage at another where that new and different experience has more value. Notably, how company leadership changes are less likely to be from internal candidates than a transplant from another company. |
| |
| ▲ | 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
|