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▲ Xylakant 4 hours ago

A major problem with property taxes on owner-occupied housing is that the value the owner derives from the house is not dependent on the resale value of the house. An owner occupied house is not primarily a financial investment in most cases. Any increase in housing value (and thus property taxes) is mostly an increase in the cost of living. Any gain in value cannot easily be realized since it’s not a liquid asset. This leads to a fear of being driven out just because the value of the surrounding neighborhood rises doesn’t mean that the owner’s income rises in lockstep.

One way out could be to tax the value gain at the time of sale, or when the house gets rented out, thus no longer being “owner occupied”.

▲khuey 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

A major problem with decoupling property taxes on owner-occupied housing from market prices is that it removes the biggest incentive for a homeowner to vote for policies that keep the local real estate market in check. An owner occupied house in a desirable area where there is no disincentive to politically engineering a supply shortage becomes a financial investment. Any increase in housing value becomes profit for the owner (or their descendants). This leads to supply restrictions and escalating prices and an increasingly unhealthy society as the young and the poorer are pushed out of the city, county, or even state.

This is essentially what has happened in coastal California over the last 60 years.

▲EgregiousCube 15 minutes ago | parent [-]

If those places became worse places to live as a result, wouldn't that drive property values down?

▲anticorporate 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> One way out could be to tax the value gain at the time of sale, or when the house gets rented out, thus no longer being “owner occupied”.

My local government put exactly this on the ballot: a small percentage transfer tax on the sale price of the home, which would offset some of the costs we currently pay in ad valorem property taxes.

The local real estate community had a meltdown and poured hundreds of thousands of dollars into defeating it, which my neighbors obliged and did.

▲mikeryan 31 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

I own a home in Berkeley which loves transfer taxes. They’re creative about it though they tax at different rates based on the home sales price. Starting 1/1/27 the transfer tax goes from 2.5% to 3.5% based on the selling price of the home.

It’s been attractive to voters since most homes sell in the first tier.

You can reclaim some of the transfer tax by performing seismic upgrades which is actually something I support in a town with some houses that can be 100 years old.

▲dave78 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think many people would have a hard time believing that a new tax in one area would be offset by lowering taxes in another. Even if they did reduce property taxes shortly after passage, many people would assume they will raise them again later on.

▲jonhohle 3 hours ago | parent [-]

If it wasn’t combined in the same bill, the people will just have two taxes going forward. Effectively every “temporary” tax becomes a permanent tax. During the last local election, our city council was asking people to vote to replace an expiring tax with one at a lower rate and trying to sell it as voting for this reduces your tax.

▲PopAlongKid 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>> One way out could be to tax the value gain at the time of sale, or when the house gets rented out, thus no longer being “owner occupied”.

>My local government put exactly this on the ballot: a small percentage transfer tax on the sale price of the home,

First comment suggests taxing the gain (income tax), while second comment suggests a tax on sale price (gross receipts tax). Two very different things.

▲anticorporate 2 hours ago | parent [-]

While I grant you that they are two different things, two-thirds of the average sale price in my area is from gains in value accrued over the time the home was occupied prior to sale, almost all of which is currently untaxed.

▲lostmsu 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The problem with transfer taxes is they bolt you to the place.

▲jabl an hour ago | parent [-]

That is true, but on the other hand if you had to pay a hefty yearly property or wealth tax you might not be able to afford it in the sense that your wealth is bound up in the house.

The counter is of course that when you buy a house you should make sure you have enough income and/or liquid wealth so that you can pay the taxes. And if not, move to a smaller house. Of course, opponents of such taxation will then roll out all kinds of grannies living in mansions on meager pensions. Then again, is it fair that this prices out younger people from the property market?

As difficult as they are, I do think we'll need some form of wealth taxation in order to put a brake on spiraling inequality. Yes, call me a fan of Piketty if you want.

▲engineer_22 2 minutes ago | parent [-]

A wealth tax is just a warning shot to your wealthy neighbors, if they can afford to flee, they'll flee.

If you're planning a peasant revolt you should really consider going all-in, bloody revolution, you give the kulaks less time & space to plan for contingencies.

▲europoorean 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The issue with that is the disincentive to sell (or buy), which leads a lot of people to stay put in their oversized home during retirement, for example.

In the UK, 'stamp duty' is something that buyers pay (as opposed to sellers), but sellers also have to buy, so everyone pays to move and everyone stays put to avoid paying.

(And of course no one builds, which is the biggest issue).

I'd say it's OK to defer your property taxes until you sell (or die), but it shouldn't be the default, only something you apply for if you're in a vulnerable position.

I think it's a great idea to let land taxes create the incentives to build efficiently.

▲PunchyHamster 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Except they don't, taxing single house owner is just cost of living increase any time area gets gentrified or more desirable

It's basically excuse to get rid of poor that made a mistake of buying a house in area that turned more expensive 2 decades after.

Tax anything after first house, sure, but taxing house by value is terrible idea that never actually worked in a way proponents are saying it would

▲swagasaurus-rex 2 hours ago | parent [-]

the incentive is if they sell they realize their gains and are left much richer

▲mchusma 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Or just loosen supply side restrictions so much that houses typically don’t go up in value.

▲Xylakant 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It’s really hard to loosen supply side restrictions on “this somehow became a hip neighborhood.” You can in general make more housing available, but not prevent rising prices in specific neighborhoods.

▲nkmnz 4 hours ago | parent [-]

You absolutely can prevent a "hip neighborhood" from becoming the equivalent of a short squeeze. Prices are not only signals of current scarcity, but also future scarcity. Once you've established that any increase in property value will lead to an influx of capital, followed by a swift increase of supply, every increase will partially suffocate itself.

▲goalieca 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The funny thing about land and population growth is that land doesn’t. It’s fixed.

▲PunchyHamster 4 hours ago | parent [-]

and population in developed world is also no longer growing

▲TitaRusell 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Immigration means that population will grow in first tier countries.

▲groundzeros2015 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The premise of real estate (above survival) is living somewhere other people don’t.

▲xnx 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Any gain in value cannot easily be realized since it’s not a liquid asset.

Reverse mortgage

▲iso1631 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

"Oh no, someone's given me an extra $500k for doing nothing which I'll get when I (or my kids) sell my house, how terrible"

▲jonhohle 3 hours ago | parent [-]

But they didn’t do nothing. They put up capital for a resource. Generally more capital than anything else until late in career.

▲iso1631 an hour ago | parent | next [-]

They did not create the resource (the land), nor did the person they bought it from.

▲dghlsakjg an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

And arguably, they already extracted the value of that house by having a place to live without having paid for it up front. They didn’t even put up the capital in most cases. In the US they will have been granted a loan that is backstopped, and therefore subsidized by the government. Don’t forget the mortgage interest deduction, that’s a massive homeowner subsidy.

So someone else put up the capital, the government made that capital cheap, and societal demand with artificial scarcity (in most places) pushed up the asset value.

I’m not saying it’s a bad thing, but let’s not pretend that making capital gains on a house in the US is anything like any other available investment.

▲collinmcnulty 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Exactly. Surely the finance industry can come up with a product that automates this so you automatically sell them a tiny slice of your home to make up the property taxes without it affecting your cash flows.

▲dghlsakjg an hour ago | parent [-]

The private finance industry need not be involved.

Just have government allow taxes to be deferred until time of sale with interest pinned to the cost of borrowing for government. That already exists where I live for people over the age of 65. The government can still get the revenue for free via borrowing and the payback is more or less guaranteed.

▲ 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
▲nkmnz 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That's basic Econ101: households optimize for (subjective) utility, not for profit on some balance sheet. Taxing households for non-realized gains doesn't take into account liquidity nor the (subjective) negative utility and opportunity cost of selling your home and moving away.

▲elevation 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This will drive rent up, punishing people who lack the credit to purchase.

▲TitaRusell 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I disagree. In my country we are currently in a inheritance boom. Everyone who has parents is getting free money.

▲iso1631 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> One way out could be to tax the value gain at the time of sale

Stamp duty in the UK, horrendous tax. It's better than nothing at offsetting the unearned increase in house (land) value, but far worse than a regular tax.

If you live somewhere for 10 years, then move, then repeat for 40 years, you pay far more than if you never move. This encourages people to live in less suitable houses for longer.

As to your worry about land values increasing -- the owner is deriving benefit. The higher the land value is, the more benefit the owner gets from the land.

▲dpark 4 hours ago | parent [-]

> If you live somewhere for 10 years, then move, then repeat for 40 years, you pay far more than if you never move.

This sounds like a problem with the way the particular tax is written, not with the idea of taxing housing gains at the time of sale.

> The higher the land value is, the more benefit the owner gets from the land.

What benefit does a homeowner derive from increased land value before selling?

▲iso1631 an hour ago | parent [-]

The increased land value is because the land is more desirable. If I buy some land next to a rubbish dump, it's cheap because living there is terrible. If the dump is then closed my land improves in value, and I derive value from that.

Likewise if I buy somewhere cheap in a backwater town, and the town becomes more desirable because there are better employment opportunities, better shops, better amenities, all of which serve to mean people will pay more for the land, then I benefit from that immediately.

▲brabel 31 minutes ago | parent [-]

The value is subjective, if you lived in a quaint town and now it’s become a bustling place it may be a nightmare for you , despite the price increases. That is actually a win win situation, though, since you can now move to another quaint town elsewhere while taking a pile of cash with you, with the perhaps important caveat that you do lose your proximity to places and people you may consider more important than the money.

▲shkkmo an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> One way out could be to tax the value gain at the time of sale, or when the house gets rented out, thus no longer being “owner occupied”.

Forcing renters and buyers to pay for the local services instead of property owners seems extremely unfair.

> Any increase in housing value (and thus property taxes) is mostly an increase in the cost of living.

So? If the property values go up then cost of living is going up for renters too. Why should property owners be shielded from this by imposing local service costs on renters who generally have even lower incomes than owners.

▲poly2it 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> One way out could be to tax the value gain at the time of sale

This is how it works for sales in Sweden, via the so called "reavinstskatt", or profit realisation tax. Funnily enough, it is mostly applied to individuals in practice. To avoid the taxation, companies package properties in subsidiaries, which can then be sold and traded like any other stock. The tax is then postponed until the de jure sale of the property, which never occurs. Individuals are not eligible because the loophole is closed if the legal owner also occupies the property they own.

▲Shitty-kitty an hour ago | parent [-]

This sounds like a plan to make rented properties a more liquid asset and make rent cheaper. Seems like a sound idea to me.