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▲ criddell 7 hours ago

What's the intended outcome?

If you break up the Visa and Mastercard cartels, does this San Diego pizzeria then have to decide what cards to accept on a bank-by-bank basis?

▲prasadjoglekar 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The opposite of what's being alleged. From TFA:

Broadly, the interlocking restraints set and maintained by the defendants have forced merchants that accept any Visa and Mastercard credit card to accept all such cards, regardless of cost, thereby eliminating any incentive for issuing banks to compete by lowering their fees, the suit says. The lawsuit claims the challenged restraints have also prevented merchants from being able to steer customers to lower-cost payment options—for instance, by surcharging based on a customer’s use of a particular card. These and other restraints have prevented competition among issuing banks and other credit card networks, allowing the financial giants to raise their fees every year “without consequence,” the case alleges.

▲mahboi 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Reminds me of how the cardholder agreements used to all prohibit adding a credit card surcharge to cover the fees. Some of the fees go back to the customer as rewards, so customers especially had no reason to use cash. Now that practice is illegal, and many places are 3-5% cheaper with cash, which is in line with the fees and usually much larger than credit card rewards.

▲BenoitEssiambre 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Is that practice illegal? I've never gotten a discount for using cash or debit.

That is the crux of the problem though. By adding fees and then contractually forbidding merchants from passing those fees on to credit card customers, it is forcing non card users to pay for card users fees since the fees are embedded in prices. Plus they're even giving card users kickbacks in the form of points. So non credit card users end up paying more credit card fees than credit card users which is nonsense.

▲tastyfreeze 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Not illegal. Card issuers required merchants that wanted to accept their cards to not have separate pricing for cash and credit card. It would have been a lot more difficult for credit cards to take over as the primary payment method if they had to convince consumers that the convenience of a card was worth paying 3-5% more on everything. Exceptions started being added for public entities, like municipalities, that wanted to accept cards.

> So non credit card users end up paying more credit card fees than credit card users which is nonsense.

The business just makes more money on cash transactions. It would be interesting to find if the cost of cash handling/losses is comparable to the card processing fees.

▲toast0 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Is that practice illegal? I've never gotten a discount for using cash or debit.

It is no longer permitted for payment networks to prohibit discounts for cash or surcharging use of credit.

A few of the merchants I use regularly have credit surcharges now. It's pretty common at gas stations near me. Almost all business with my state or local government has a 3% fee for card use.

▲mahboi 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Yes in the US. It's usually gas stations, small businesses, and less expensive places offering the discount. The only gas station around here that doesn't charge extra for card is Costco, where they also don't take cash.

▲BeetleB 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

So yes - the shop owner will get to decide which banks' VISA cards he will accept.

Fundamentally, I agree with the lawsuit. Logistically, this seems like a bit of a nightmare. No longer will it be "CC purchases will have a 2% extra fee." Instead it will be "If you have a Chase Spark card, the fee will be 4%. If you have a Costco Visa card, it will be...".

▲criddell 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

That sounds a lot like they want to be able to say which banks cards they want to accept (the "forced merchants that accept any Visa and Mastercard credit card to accept all such cards" part).

▲buzer 6 hours ago | parent [-]

It's most likely primarily about different credit card "brands" like Visa infinite, signature etc. These have different benefits for customers (like cashback and points) and higher fees for merchants.

▲toast0 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I don't think the intent is really to break up Visa and Mastercard, but to allow merchants to accurately pass through their variable costs.

If merchant fees are < 1% if I use debit and ~ 4% if I use a rewards card, but merchant rules (set by the networks and enforced by the acquiring banks) say they can't accept amex and surcharge rewards cards but not debit cards, they can't reduce their costs by pushing me towards debit cards or non-rewards cards.

There's some other things they're challenging that could allow for more competition.

Removing the 'No-Bypass Rules' could allow for lower cost clearing if the acquiring bank is the same as the issuing bank and the potential for lower cost clearing when the the acquiring and issuing banks have a clearing relationship outside of the major networks.

Removing the 'No-Competing-Marks Rules' could allow for a card to be Visa + some upstart lower cost network; if the merchant supports it, great, if not, they can still process payment through Visa. I think US law requires ATM cards to be usable through at least two distinct networks, and there's at least some diversity in ATM networks as a result.

▲m463 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

A lot of small restaurants are cash-only because of all this nonsense.

A friend of mine owns a restaurant that is pretty remote so lower business. He told me he doesn't take credit cards because he would be paying them a percentage for everything.

It is kind of like the mafia to a small guy like him.

I think he does do a few phone apps.

A waitress at another cash-only restaurant told me, worse than customers who hear they won't take credit cards are the apple pay folks. "They really get annoyed when they don't get their apple pay"

Franchises don't care. They can raise prices monthly or even dynamic price if they want to.

Kind of sucks for society because lots of the best/greatest restaurants are not franchises.

▲ptmcc 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Handling cash isn't free, either. Mistakes, theft, the labor of managing the cash box, frequent trips to the bank or fees for cash transportation services, etc.

Depending on which sources you believe, the cost of handling cash can actually exceed credit card merchant fees.

Many cashless businesses, including bars and restaurants, do it specifically because handling cash is expensive if you actually do a full accounting for it.

▲Marsymars an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> A waitress at another cash-only restaurant told me, worse than customers who hear they won't take credit cards are the apple pay folks. "They really get annoyed when they don't get their apple pay"

I get what she's say, but it is kind of a weird comparison, because Apple Pay is more-or-less payment network agnostic. You can pay via credit, debit, or transportation card (and possibly others that I haven't used) on Apple Pay.

In the US you even have Apple Cash which is pretty close to digital cash equivalent... not really workable for a business with the $2k/week limit though.

▲blasphemers an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think there is a different reason some small restaurants are cash only.

▲BeetleB 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Every store has to make its decisions.

The reality is that for most businesses, accepting credit cards, with their fees, results in more revenue overall (more customers).

If your business is low volume, cash only makes more sense.

▲freejazz 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

>A lot of small restaurants are cash-only because of all this nonsense.

A lot? Not sure about that.

>I think he does do a few phone apps.

Not if he's cash only he's not.

▲astura 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Legislation to cap fees.

The European Union caps consumer card interchange fees at 0.2% for debit cards and 0.3% for credit cards

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/EN/legal-content/summary/fees-for-...

▲ 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]
[deleted]
▲jerlam 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

And the US already capped debit card fees back in 2010:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durbin_amendment

This is explicitly about credit card fees.

▲zeroonetwothree 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Not for all banks

▲criddell 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Can the courts cap fees? I thought that would have to be something congress does.

▲mahboi 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Right. All the courts can do is use the high fees as evidence of monopoly.

▲486sx33 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

▲ajkjk 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

um, the same system we have today but with less rent extraction

and don't pretend like it's not possible, it's obviously possible: take the system and lower the fee to something proportional to the price of providing the service

if credit card rewards programs have to go to make it economically viable -- awesome, that would be a second win.

▲tt24 6 hours ago | parent [-]

I like rewards programs and disagree that it would be a win. Your suggestion puts me in an objectively worse position.

▲ajkjk 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

in the paradigm where rewards programs go away, prices at stores are also 1-3% cheaper across the board because the rent-extraction of credit card fees is removed, so make sure you're considering that scenario fully.

it's possible that with the fees removed cards still have rewards because the premium cards still want your business (they have other mechanisms for making money than just interest + fees, cf https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/how-credit-cards-make...)

however I maintain that credit card rewards are a net drain on society. Paying for things should just be paying for them, not a complicated system that generates fake money points that you can then turn around and spend in bizarre ways if you remember to. The whole system is stupid.

▲r2_pilot 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Okay, so which side is in the majority? The people who have credit card debt or the people who are using rewards programs in a way that doesn't put them in an objectively worse position? Let's help whichever side is larger.

▲tt24 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Why would we help whichever side is larger?

The current status quo is a result of free association. If people prefer to have credit card debt or use rewards programs poorly then I have no issue with continuing in this manner.

▲chrisweekly 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

same. pick a card w good rewards, pay the statement balance to $0 every month, reap some benefits while strengthening your credit score.

▲HDThoreaun 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The fees are larger than the rewards. Most business people pay with credit card is competitive. Retail and restaurants absolutely do pass savings on to customers because of how high competition is.

▲gessha 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

\s

I totally agree. I propose the opposite of what this lawsuit is fighting: let's merge Visa and Mastercard. Throw in AmEx while you're at it. Since the concepts of competition, interoperability and standards are too foreign to people and having too many types of payment processors is confusing, we need to have a single payment processor. That way we can grumble at only a single party when they jack up processing fees for editing database rows or straight up debank us. Efficiency!

\s