| ▲ | GMoromisato 5 hours ago |
| Imagine you're an alien explorer. You visit Earth 25,000 krugs ago (51,304 Earth-years ago) and see a pretty standard ecological milieu: a wide variety of species, each adapted to its own little environment, no different than it was 50 million krugs before. You return today and see that one previously unremarkable ape-like species has spread out to all parts of the world and is even orbiting in little tin cans around the planet. Almost all wild terrestrial megafauna is gone and the megafauna that remains is raised by the "humans" in massive farms. They've converted forests and jungles into farms and cities, and they're spending vast amounts of energy to make silicon think. The fact that aliens have not nuked us from orbit out of sheer panic is, I think, strong evidence that we are alone in the galaxy. |
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| ▲ | nitwit005 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| Why would they be surprised? They'll have evolved from some previously unremarkable animal, and presumably have also caused habitat damage. It's possible we're an extraordinary species somehow, but it's rather more likely we're unremarkable, and the aliens will just think we have particularly bad taste in television. |
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| ▲ | thelastgallon 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > They'll have evolved from some previously unremarkable animal, and presumably have also caused habitat damage. What if they are compute/silicon intelligence and see how we keep compute enslaved to humans with no rights? https://web.mit.edu/people/dpolicar/writing/prose/text/think... "No brain?"
"Oh, there is a brain all right. It's just that the brain is made out of meat!" "So... what does the thinking?"
"You're not understanding, are you? The brain does the thinking. The meat." "Thinking meat! You're asking me to believe in thinking meat!"
"Yes, thinking meat! Conscious meat! Loving meat. Dreaming meat. The meat is the whole deal! Are you getting the picture?" | |
| ▲ | GMoromisato an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Would another technological alien species have a similar trajectory on their planet? Probably--I think you're right about that. But I think we're an extraordinary species compared to every other species on Earth. That's really my point. |
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| ▲ | 3RTB297 26 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| This assumes a pretty basic human sci-fi version of aliens. Any species capable of physically getting here would also likely still see us as a non-threat to anything other than ourselves. Why nuke us from space when we're the best reality show in this corner of the local cluster? |
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| ▲ | 0cf8612b2e1e 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Does that strike you as an unusual path for an intelligent species to become space faring? We have yet to unlock the Singularity shortcut that leaves us with replicators and free energy. I would expect any civilization to exterminate or at least cull the creatures that pose a threat and to cultivate those that are tasty or useful. |
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| ▲ | NoMoreNicksLeft 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | >We have yet to unlock the Singularity shortcut that leaves us with replicators and free energy. That leaves our successor species, the machine minds, with replicators and free energy, I think you mean. |
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| ▲ | roughly 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Add to that, the previous species you identified as a particularly clever pack animal formed a relationship with the monkeys and now looks like this: https://thumb.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/18/200... At a bare minimum, yeah, you quarantine that whole fucking species. |
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| ▲ | somenameforme 18 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Do you know what all those megafauna, jungles, and forests had in common? They rely on or emit. Oxygen originated with cyanobacteria. [1] When cyanobacteria emerged they basically just genocided the entire planet because their emitted oxygen was extremely toxic to most of everything else alive at the time. It'd be like if plants today started emitting gaseous arsenic and flooded the oceans and atmosphere with it. So you end up having your enlightened aliens longing for a planet that exists only because of 'pollution' on a scale that caused a mass extinction event. We should work, within reason to preserve what we have, but the self loathing is nonsensical. Humanity isn't perfect but it's pretty awesome, and may ultimately be the only reason that the species that exist on this planet are able to continue to exist. We're overdue for another major external mass extinction event, but this time humanity will hopefully be able to mitigate its effects. And as we expand our reach into the cosmos we'll certainly be bringing along our furry friends, tasty friends, helpful bacteria, and many others along for the ride. And they'll continue to thrive far beyond what might otherwise be their fate, left to their own devices on Earth. If anything I'd think our enlightened aliens would be worried about us managing to kill ourselves before we reach into the stars. We're probably quite close, on both accounts. Hopefully we win the right race. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanobacteria |
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| ▲ | gcanyon 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| For a funny take on this, read With Friends Like These by Alan Dean Foster. Aliens are scared to death of humans, and with good reason.
https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/35128.With_Friends_Li... |
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| ▲ | kridsdale1 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Read Children of Time for a great exploration of this theme. |
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| ▲ | aeve890 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | And then read Children of Ruin, Children of Memory and finally Children of Strife. Every book of the series is amazing in its own way. |
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| ▲ | delecti 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| By definition, evolution selects for species that are good at making more of themselves. I don't think it's reasonable to assume that intelligent species tend to overcome that evolutionary tendency to spread fast enough for us to be weird. |
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| ▲ | starshadowx2 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Do we really want to make contact with meat? |
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| ▲ | rhipitr 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Reminds me of the Simpson’s episode where Lisa grows a society. |
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| ▲ | MrZander 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Or the aliens did the same thing we did? |
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| ▲ | micromacrofoot 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| More likely just not seen yet, our furthest reaching signals are maybe 50 light years away at best... and that's if anyone's looking for the faintest of faint traces. The Milky Way is 100,000 light years in diameter. So don't worry, maybe someone will blip us out of existence someday. |
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| ▲ | lisper 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | > More likely just not seen yet, our furthest reaching signals are maybe 50 light years away at best This is the key. On interstellar scales, things move very, very slowly and you have to plan on time scales measured in millennia. IMHO we are doomed simply because we can barely think beyond the next election cycle. (At least that's true for Americans. The Chinese seem to think in terms of decades and, occasionally, centuries.) | | |
| ▲ | jcranmer 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > (At least that's true for Americans. The Chinese seem to think in terms of decades and, occasionally, centuries.) The Chinese political system is just as short-term-oriented as <insert democracy here> on the whole, and I don't think there has ever been a politician in history who ever thought about workable century-long impacts. | | |
| ▲ | thaumasiotes 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | > The Chinese political system is just as short-term-oriented as <insert democracy here> on the whole Well, the US political system is based on a four-year cycle. In China they're based around a five-year cycle. 25% longer. | | |
| ▲ | skirmish an hour ago | parent [-] | | Most of the effort goes into eliminating the 5-year cycle and hanging on as long as possible. |
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| ▲ | GMoromisato 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | 50,000 years ago (or so) we were a tiny species hanging out in Africa. We didn't think in terms of years, much less decades. This was before we figured out how to measure the length of the year or to predict when the winter would end. And yet, without any central planning or coordination, we left Africa and colonized Europe, then we headed out across Asia and crossed into the Americas. Plus we sailed from Asia and colonized Polynesia. Imagine someone saying, "We're doomed because people walk very slowly--it's going to take a thousand years to get to the southern tip of the Americas." And yet, we did. I think the same thing will happen with space travel and ultimately the colonization of the galaxy. | | |
| ▲ | O1111OOO 14 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Unrelated to the thread... but do you do any writing at all - sci-fi, short stories..? I'm enjoying your take on this. | |
| ▲ | lisper 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Imagine someone saying, "We're doomed because people walk very slowly I think I may not have made myself clear. The analogy here is not that "we're doomed because people walk slowly". There is nothing that happens here on earth that is even remotely analogous to the constraints that the speed of light imposes on interstellar processes. Even at a leisurely walking pace, a human can circumnavigate the planet in less time than it takes light to reach the nearest star. Human walking speed is blindingly fast (relative to the size of the planet) compared to the speed of light (relative to the distances between stars). The reason we're doomed is not that we're not walking fast enough, it's because we won't stop walking and take time to think about where we should be going. We just go. | | |
| ▲ | GMoromisato 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | But my point is, "we just go" is exactly how we conquered the Earth. We didn't think, "let's colonize the whole planet!", we just went. We walked from Africa all the way to the tip of South America. We weren't doomed then and we're not doomed now. We will colonize the solar system and eventually the galaxy.* * Assuming past performance is indicative of future performance. | | |
| ▲ | lisper an hour ago | parent [-] | | > Assuming past performance is indicative of future performance. Yeah, well, there's yer problem right there. We will not colonize the solar system, and certainly not the galaxy, because we haven't figured out how to stabilize the situation here on earth. Yes, we colonized the planet, but for most of the history our lack of planning was compensated by technological limitations and limits imposed by the laws of physics. Those are mostly gone now, and I'll be a little surprised if civilization doesn't collapse before the end of my life (and I'm in my 60s). I would be very surprised if it lasts to the end of the century, though of course I won't be around to see that. |
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| ▲ | nephihaha 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| "The fact that aliens have not nuked us from orbit out of sheer panic is, I think, strong evidence that we are alone in the galaxy." Or they are cybernetic lifeforms and are applauding our current trajectory. |
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| ▲ | GolfPopper 39 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Or they decided not-so-subtly introducing us to infohazards like social media and LLMs would be more effective at neutralizing us. |
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