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▲ DoctorOetker 3 hours ago

People always get upset when I propose mathematical formalization of law and using e.g. metamath verifier as a judge.

At least the metamath verifiers will not bend over backwards and come up with absurd inconsistent counterarguments.

It's the most humiliating thing for citizens when the legal cadre of a nation pretends in the national journal that everybody falls for its lies... openly mocking the concept of truth itself with absurdism.

▲wahern 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Legal systems typically use non-monotonic logic. Most formal logic systems, particularly in mathematical fields, use monotonic logic. Monotonic logic isn't well suited for the law or most other areas of human activity.

If you want an entire legal system formally defined in logic, you're going to have to do a ton of novel work in expanding the understanding of and application of non-monotonic logic because there isn't much scholarship compared to monotonic logic systems.

That said, France is one of the only countries that has tried anything like this. Their tax system is required to be defined and expressed algorithmically, and they even built a programming language and compiler tool chain to do this. I think it uses monotonic logic, though, and I don't think anybody has seriously suggested the French tax code is something to be copied, neither as a tax code nor an approach to legal codification more generally.

▲betaby 2 hours ago | parent [-]

> Their tax system is required to be defined and expressed algorithmically, and they even built a programming language and compiler tool chain to do this.

That's a very interesting fact. Especially in the context of the recent news of the 50 billion euros deficit https://www.cnbc.com/2026/09/24/france-budget-debt-deficit-g...

If their taxes are defined mathematically I would not expect constant mishaps with the budget.

▲thyrsus 32 minutes ago | parent [-]

Budgets are based on predictions of the future, and "predictions are difficult, especially about the future".

▲andrewflnr 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> But the Rodin Museum and the Ministry of Culture simply ignored the court’s order. To be clear, they did not appeal it, they ignored it.

No formulation of the law will solve this. The problem is clearly not that the law was unclear. Either the people with real power do what's right, or they don't.

▲DoctorOetker 3 hours ago | parent [-]

> No formulation of the law will solve this.

It's a tall claim, given a proper formalization (say under democratic control), malicious counterparty just can't force the national formal verifier to pronounce this or that if it doesn't follow.

▲miohtama 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Let me tell you about Mr Trump

▲DoctorOetker 2 hours ago | parent [-]

please don't make this a partisan issue, I'm sure you can come up with ways to fool a minimalistic verifier (redundantly implemented) into agreeing with your position.

Imagine every autocrat or dictator and all agents of the state, having freedoms, would have to prove the law authorizes them to exercise this or that step, instead of dictating orders. Imagine everyone was raised to ignore authority figures and only execute commands that are provably in compliance with the law, raised to double check it by formal verification. It will point out any flaws on the path to the "desired conclusion". If properly grounded it would be hell for control freaks, they'd leave government positions at scale, the real problem solvers (some human, some machines if we cherish human rights etc more than vanity) would float up.

Does that sound it makes life easier or harder on your average boogeyman?

▲krisoft 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> People always get upset when I propose mathematical formalization of law and using e.g. metamath verifier as a judge.

I don’t get upset. I just don’t know what that means. What would that look like in practice?

Lets see some simple example. 18 U.S. Code § 912: “Whoever falsely assumes or pretends to be an officer or employee acting under the authority of the United States or any department, agency or officer thereof, and acts as such, or in such pretended character demands or obtains any money, paper, document, or thing of value, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.”

How would you write that in mathematical formalization?

And then how would you make a metamath verifier judge if Robert J. Rippee committed it on January 1, 1991? I’m sure you can google the case(United States v. Rippee, 961 F.2d 677), but a short summary: “On January 1, 1991, officers from the National City, Illinois, Police Department stopped Rippee for making an illegal U-turn. The officers let Rippee go without a ticket, however, when he told them he was a United States Marshal on his way to break up a fight at Fannies' Night Club in Brooklyn, Illinois. […] Rippee stipulated that he was not and had never been a United States Marshal.“

How would something like that look like under your proposed system?

▲dekhn 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Are laws expected to be completely self and cross consistent?

I wanted programmatic law in the past and then after thinking and talking a bit, concluded that self and cross consistency in the law is not considered necessary.

▲marcosdumay an hour ago | parent | next [-]

It can't be completely self and cross consistent, it's not possible. But that is exactly the goal, we just can't achieve it.

How do you know if you are breaking the law or not if it's inconsistent? And like the sibling points out, any inconsistency can be abused to declare you guilty or innocent on any behavior depending on the partisanship and interests of the judge.

▲DoctorOetker 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Obviously a formal verifier metamath, and a corresponding database like set.mm but law.mm containing all the normative statements etc would have to be supported by an ecosystem, such an ecosystem should reward finding inconsistencies, since if we tolerate just one inconsistency (which would correspond to true == false) then every statement provably true can be proven false and vice versa, this is the principle of explosion: a formal system loses every meaning when an inconsistency is present, hence an ecosystem maintaining the law would encourage finding inconsistencies instead of swiping the arbitrarianism under the rug.

▲shiandow 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Formalisation can't save you from determining what is and isn't a document. The judges main task is formalising reality and lawd, the rest of the inference is typically easy.

▲DoctorOetker 2 hours ago | parent [-]

>Formalisation can't save you from determining what is and isn't a document.

I'm not sure what this sentence even means, of course the democracy should have define those.

its up to the electorate to democratically define what is a document, to define classifications of types of documents, and which ones are administrative.

> The judges main task is formalising reality and lawd, the rest of the inference is typically easy.

Except the judge is plainly ignoring valid derivations, and as a verifier making silly "proofs" up (civil law, not common law) in full-frontal-nudity on behalf of one party.

The problem is not the concept of law, nor the concept of democracy, nor the concept of formalization: the problem is how do we defend against and formalize a response to corrupt verifiers in the legal system?

Those who understand technology to verify arguments already exists can only come to the conclusion we'd be better of with formal verifiers in legal systems.

▲drysart 33 minutes ago | parent [-]

> Those who understand technology to verify arguments already exists can only come to the conclusion we'd be better of with formal verifiers in legal systems.

Those who understand law know that formal verifiers cannot replace a judge, because every facet of law (the writing of it, the interpretation of it, the application of it, and the enforcement of it) has to account for all the vagueries of human existence.

No formal verifier can account for definitions that need to expand as the scope of human endeavor expands. No formal verifier can determine mens rea. No formal verifier can determine if something is obscene. No formal verifier can determine someone's mental competence. No formal verifier can cover all mitigating factors. No formal verifier can apply mercy where mercy is needed.

▲MisterMunchkin 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Nobody gets upset, they just think you’re silly. Law simplification is just a classic time waste discussion. But I’ll waste 30 seconds on it for you.

Consider a simple crime, murder. Let’s simplify it to “if you kill someone, that’s murder and you get life”

But then what if I’m being stabbed by the person I kill?

Okay so self defence.

But then what if I say it’s self defence but factually that’s incorrect, but I genuinely believed it was self defence?

What if I’m a soldier and I’m shooting an enemy?

What if I shoot them because they’re raping my child?

What if I’m shooting them because they raped my child ten years ago and I’ve been plotting my revenge ever since?

What if someone said they’ll shoot me if I didn’t shoot them?

What if I was in psychosis and thought they were going to kill me?

What if I thought they were a deer and shot them by mistake while hunting?

It turns out we have all these laws in this particular way because of thousands of years of work dealing with all of these issues.

▲p-e-w an hour ago | parent [-]

Other than genuine self defense, I disagree with every single “justification” you listed. So yes, in my eyes (and the eyes of many other people I expect), the law could be substantially simplified.

▲2muchcoffeeman 29 minutes ago | parent [-]

Did the post actually justify anything? Reads like a list of things that make simplification of laws hard.

And if you can’t sympathise with any of those cases, I hope you’re never called upon to decide anything involving other people.

▲nradov 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I'm not upset, but what you're proposing is just stupid. If you think that mathematical formalization is a desirable quality then you clearly don't understand the purpose of having a legal system in the first place.