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▲ rglover 3 hours ago

> But does that mean are they breaking federal law or unconstitutional?

I'd argue they break the fourth amendment:

> The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

What are "unreasonable searches" if not being under "indiscriminate mass surveillance?"

▲joshheitzman 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The US constitution is silent on surveillance. I seriously doubt anyone from the 1700s would consider watching people in public spaces to be a search. Automating watching people doesn't seem like it transforms watching into to a search either.

▲Brybry 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

People in the 1700s would not expect all of their movements to be tracked and watched at all times. They would definitely take issue with this. The issue of their time was general warrants/writs of assistance which let the British search anyone anywhere at any time and take their property. [1]

The key issue there was the scope of the British power, not the fact that searches and seizures could happen at all. We wanted warrants that were reasonable and limited.

The issue is not a single security camera from a private bank. The issue is not a single cop in a car investigating someone. The issue is a national and searchable network of cameras where agents of the government can track anyone at any time for no reason at all.

The judge says the police need probable cause and a warrant for a search against an individual.

> Freedom from persistent, dragnet-style surveillance while in public is not a foreign concept in our society, and it is a reasonable expectation that society already accepts. This is the same expectation of privacy that the Supreme Court has continued to recognize in cases like Carpenter and Chatrie. Cell phones also move in public places where people can see you in plain view. But it becomes constitutionally problematic when law enforcement can indiscriminately and passively catalog your whereabouts over an extended period of time and then use that information for any purpose whenever convenient. [2]

[1] https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/amdt4-2/ALDE_...

[2] https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.oknd.76...

▲istjohn 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There's also: "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

▲joshheitzman 3 hours ago | parent [-]

That sentence may as well not even be there for all the good it does. Even the enumerated rights keep getting whittled down.

▲AngryData 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

In the 1700s it was pretty easy to move into a private place and ensure nobody else was listening though too. We didn't have guard posts on every other corner writing down descriptions of every carriage and wagon that passes by.

▲LadyCailin 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Do you think the people in the 1700s would have approved of having police follow everyone around at all times in public spaces, taking notes? I think it’s easy to imagine how they would feel in principle, even if they couldn’t imagine the specific technology.

▲kennywinker 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You need a warrant to tap somebody's phone.

▲missedthecue 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Ben Franklin intercepted and published private mail in his newspaper

▲nullc 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Watching people isn't the problem, it's the state requirement to be identifiable-- e.g. display plates (or, in some cases to not wear a mask in public) which is the constitutional issue. The privacy issue is downstream from that.

▲charcircuit 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

>What are "unreasonable searches" if not being under "indiscriminate mass surveillance?"

A police officer randomly entering your house and going through all of your belongings.

Indiscriminately searching a larger number of people is not necessarily unreasonable. Take for example the TSA at airports where you have to searched to enter and the airpots have a ton of cameras recording every single person there.

▲kennywinker 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Frankly, the TSAs security theater should not be taken as an example of reasonable gov behaviour.

▲Quekid5 3 hours ago | parent [-]

TBF they are quite good at finding water/shampoo containers.