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▲ HeavenFox 3 hours ago

I am Chinese living in America.

All the authors observations ring true, and they all stem from one simple fact: China was a very poor country just forty years ago, and even today is only a middle income country.

The uncomfortable truth is a lot of the things westerners take for granted are, in fact, luxuries. Arts and creativity is a luxury. Freedom to pursue passion is a luxury. Compassion is a luxury. Self-esteem is a luxury. If you barely have enough food to feed your family, as a significant number of Chinese people were in the 60s and 70s, you cannot afford any of these.

China has grown richer at a remarkable rate, but the mentality shift can take generations.

▲AzzieElbab 2 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

I grew up in the USSR. The similarites are uncanny. Add fatalism and less elaborate linkage to imaginary history.

▲bettercallsalad 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This is a helpful insight.

My counter argument though is how the elite class have a certain scarcity mentality and still holds on to these observations made in the articles.

In college, I dated a few Asian (Mainland) who all had similar mindset. Dating wasn’t about finding the right match but more about “upgrade your social face being accepted by foreigners”. It was shockingly weird at the beginning until the pattern was obvious. They were all wealthy (paying international tuition) I would think so the scarcity mindset you speak of seems like should have waned off at a local proximity (family or social circle).

▲HeavenFox 2 hours ago | parent [-]

That is the "mentality shift can take generations" part.

Those ladies may be part of the elite now. But remember their parents or grandparents went through the Great Chinese Famine where an estimated 15-60 million people died.

▲10000truths 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Arts and creativity is a luxury. Freedom to pursue passion is a luxury.

Sure.

> Compassion is a luxury. Self-esteem is a luxury.

No. These are virtues, not luxuries. You don't need a high income to be compassionate or have self-esteem.

▲phoe-krk 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> No. These are virtues, not luxuries. You don't need a high income to be compassionate or have self-esteem.

It's not about you, it's about others around you. If they do not have a "high income" (or, in other words, materially comfortable life), you cannot expect them to be comfortable enough to be compassionate or have self-esteem. And then, if they don't, but you do, it's an easy recipe for your compassion to be exploited and your self-esteem to be perceived as danger. It's a self-leveling system.

It's not an individual matter, but a social one. Always has been.

And it's not specific to China - I see it in Poland, a relatively "we've been damn poor forty years ago" country as well.

▲IncreasePosts 3 hours ago | parent [-]

This flies in the face of my own experience travelling all over the world, where the poorest people would offer me extreme generosity and not accept anything in return.

Maybe it's bias because I'm an "exotic" white guy in many areas and not just a random down on their luck average guy from their own region.

I've also been offered generosity by rich people, as well, but, I will generalize, that mainly came after I demonstrated some proof that I didn't actually need their generosity

▲neural_thing 14 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Have you ever been to truly starving places? Not taking about poor countries, literally starving places, like, Syria in WWI. Where if you don't steal from your neighbor, your kids will die of hunger. That's the kind of environment where compassion is a luxury. A lot of China was like that _even if for a short time_ in the last century. That leaves deep scars.

Not a lot of the world is like that today, you'd have to go pretty far out of anything considered tourist-friendly to see conditions similar to Mao-induced famine.

▲alightsoul 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Maybe it's country dependent. I have seen what you describe in countries where christianity is the dominant religion and most people in those countries something like 70 to 80 percent identify with it. And religion in those places is most prevalent among the poor, so much so there is a direct relationship between poverty and religion, the more religious, the poorer.

▲daymanstep 2 hours ago | parent [-]

In my personal experience, religiosity correlates with the appearance of kindness but not the actual act of kindness.

▲ an hour ago | parent [-]
[deleted]
▲Qiu_Zhanxuan 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

One's compassion reservoir capacity is proportional to one's capacity to fulfill its own needs first. You fill your cup first before you pour into others.

▲sublinear 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> These are virtues, not luxuries

I'm only speaking from my own experience here. When I've seen stressed out people who are expected to believe in "virtues", they just become more dishonest to hide their bad behavior.

The bell curve of human behavior stays the same no matter what time or place.

▲lenerdenator 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I would say that compassion is not a luxury; it's a necessity for human society to operate.

Societies thrive when humans cut each other a little slack. They die when people are constantly looking for ways to take advantage of others.

▲talon8635 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Severely competitive and hopeless environments will do a hell of a job on human compassion.

Read about the dehumanizing effects of concentration camps on individuals hiding food from their family or praying their father dies so they can get his food

Its arguable that our ability to build luxurious enough societies has allowed out compassion to flourish far beyond what is witnessed elsewhere in the state of nature

▲boelboel 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Having less competitive/ruthless (sub) societies i.e. environments where one co-operates is what allowed us to get luxury not the other way around.

▲lenerdenator 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> concentration camps

Concentration camps are an example of humans taking advantage of one another. Arguably, it's the ultimate example.

▲fuzzythrowaway 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Which is why I think the whole premise of GP is kind of suspect. China has housed a highly-developed society - not just a civilization, but a contiguous, if evolving, social order - for longer than most of the rest of the world. Even what they consider backwoods and rural is basically urban by most historical standards.

These aren't the problems of a society rising out of a state of nature; as TFA states, "The narrative is that China experienced a “century of humiliation”". I think certain aspects of Chinese culture as we know it, writ-large, make more sense coming from people who weren't just recently struggling as a society, but who are well aware of how that condition compares to their historical one.

▲cpursley 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Say that all you want, make it a mantra if you like. But have you ever skipped a meal out of sheer poverty? Or might you be projecting ethics (ie aka Americanism)? Maybe we should actually cut them some slack.

▲christophilus 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I have. I know a lot of generous, compassionate poor people. I met loads of them in Honduras and Brazil and Belize. Compassion and generosity need not be a factor of economics.

▲sublinear 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think this also leads to the most important observation of our time: progress is now much more difficult to measure and the control over the narrative is fierce.

This entire century of media has been an endless splitting of hairs and casting of doubts.

▲esafak 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Was the mentality different when Imperial China was rich, and will it change again as it becomes richer?

▲xandrius 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Who was rich in Imperial China? In most travelogues I've read about China in the 1800s, there was huge and deep poverty then too.

▲vondur 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Just like with most Empires, that wealth was heavily concentrated with the rich and powerful, a very small group of elites.

▲keybored 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> The uncomfortable truth is a lot of the things westerners take for granted are, in fact, luxuries.

This is supposed to be uncomfortable? Why? Most inter-national discussions here are about how their country is better because they have bigger houses, more toys, and how they can remain oblivious to how the rest of the world works because of how good their “soft” or “hard” power is at managing the rest of the world.