| ▲ | luma 5 hours ago |
| Some version of this claim has been made for the past 4 years. There's a data cliff, there's no more compute to buy, the financials don't make sense and all of these orgs will be out of business by end of quarter. Not once has any of these predictions come true, the pace of progress has continued on it's exponential trajectory since ChatGPT first came to the public's attention. So why now? What is special about today that suggests all of this is coming to a screeching halt despite all evidence to the contrary? |
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| ▲ | OliveronData 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| > ... the pace of progress has continued on it's exponential trajectory since ChatGPT first came to the public's attention. Did it? Model wise? I would understand agents wise, sure. But model wise? The attention to detail from the model? The ability to recall minute things? Improvements are there, yes, but mostly on Fable and Astra. Opus still isn't as attentive as Fable in long term writing for example. Sure, Opus 5.5 benchmarks better than Fable. Sure. But is that the model, or is that the RL for agentic work? From where I'm standing, the model work has not been exponential at all, and more and more it looks like the latest and greatest is getting too expensive too fast. Both 5.5 and 5.6 chat models got nerfed, actually nerfed not the tea leaves kind. In mid 5.5 cycle the chat model lost the ability to substitute names if given an outline. 5.6 cycle the chat model lost the ability to use paragraphs after a few hundred words (coinciding with Chat/Work split). There's a race from OpenAI to serve dumber models on chat. I'm not even sure who they are racing against, but the fact that Astra, Sol 6.0, and now Sol 6.1 not being available for chat, should tell you that those models are expensive, and not the kind of models that can be freely "chatted" with on a subscription. OpenAI much prefers you use Work and limit the chat usage, much like Grok and Claude. I'm guessing they will announce that later during the dev days. That could be cost cutting too, true, but really? That's the only explanation? And nothing else? Sure, the progress did not stop. But it is nowhere near close being exponential when it comes to LLMs themselves. Agents are separate. |
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| ▲ | luma 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | I didn't use the word LLM. I'm talking AI capability, you're focused on this or that current approach to AI. I think it's fair to assume that the approach will change as new ideas are learned, new and more hardware will be purchased and applied to the problem, and then capabilities will (for now) continue on their exponential curve, same as it has gone for the past several years. These things are knocking down Millennium Prize problems while a substantial subset of commenters here are still thinking about stochastic parrots. | | |
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| ▲ | chamomeal 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Has it been exponential this whole time? I feel like GPT-4 was pretty dang good. Maybe it’s rose tinted glasses cause I could finally have a bot write my dockerfiles and bash scripts, which knocked my socks off |
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| ▲ | john_strinlai 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| >Not once has any of these predictions come true, the pace of progress has continued on it's exponential trajectory since ChatGPT first came to the public's attention. do you think it will be exponential forever? |
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| ▲ | RobCat27 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | I think we'll eventually hit an information theoretic type of wall with physical hardware and GPUs and need a similar AI breakthrough as well as the development refinement of logical/physical qubits in the quantum computing space with some analogue to the transformer architecture to continue accelerating. However, I think there must be many years of development and refinement that can take place before that paradigm shift to overcome the physical compute wall is necessary. This is just my theory, but I'm young enough that I'm expecting with the rate that we are advancing, I will see AI / LLM analogues developed and run on a quantum computer in my lifetime. | | |
| ▲ | spathi_fwiffo 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I think the bottleneck will be the current one. Fabs. Either needing more fabs, new types of fabs, retooling existing fabs. All of that takes years. maybe we can design our way out of that too. But, I suppose that would be the similar breakthrough you are mentioning. | |
| ▲ | 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | trentnix 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Yep. I've made the claim (and been wrong). I was convinced the data cliff was going to be a real problem. Now I feel like we are on the cusp of having Tony Stark's Jarvis at our fingertips. What a time to be alive. |
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| ▲ | neta1337 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Incredible how many times I read similar comments over the years, containing 'on the cusp' and 'what a time to be alive'. Indeed, what a time - not a single user-facing thing on the internet has improved since then, considering the power tool we got. The most used web services get drowned in generated stuff and so are the users | | |
| ▲ | trentnix 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Not a single thing? In my house, we are using LLMs to: - plan youth soccer practices - develop well-formatted soccer game substitution schedules - build and ship software in languages I haven't used in 25 years on platforms I've never programmed for - do meal planning and build shopping lists - prepare grocery shopping carts - solicit medical advice - perform Garmin watch data analysis - administer devices (with SSH access) using natural language - avoid counterfeit soccer jersey purchases - create "Warrior Cat" graphic novels - make cartoon strips - troubleshoot appliances - manage finances - review accounting ledgers - diagnose malware infections - so much more And we do it all from a simple prompt that we can talk to if we choose. I've built more (and better) software in the past month than I did in any given year in the 30+ years I've been programming. I can understand pessimism regarding how this affects society. I can understand pessimism regarding how this gets abused. But for the life of me there's no good reason at all to be pessimistic about how quickly this has improved. | | |
| ▲ | FiberBundle 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > I've built more (and better) software in the past month than I did in any given year in the 30+ years I've been programming I feel similarly, but I think it's a valid question. Why is all the software I'm using not getting better? To be honest, I feel it's more buggy than it's ever been. |
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| ▲ | digdugdirk 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The difference now is that they've hit the "good enough" point. LLMs are a tool, and that tool is useful but not incredibly valuable unto itself. To make a manufacturing analogy - ChatGPT was a manual machining mill, and in the years after we've gone from that to a 3-axis CNC mill. Now we've added a 4th and 5th axis, which is great for the 2% of parts that need that functionality. But the big win was that initial jump from manual control to CNC. Why would I pay an extra $2 million for my CNC machine when I could just design my parts to be simpler to produce instead? The AI labs are trying to make these incredibly complex tools, but the market doesn't want/need them so they're competing on price for the tools that people do use. By selling their metaphorical CNC machines for half of what they cost to produce. Oh, and we've bet the entire economy on the hope that fancier CNC machines will magically solve all our problems in all industries, from healthcare to the legal system. So - will AI progress continue to improve? Sure. Will we continue lighting money on fire in order to make it happen? That remains to be seen. |
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| ▲ | famouswaffles 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | >The difference now is that they've hit the "good enough" point. In some aspects sure, but in others no. Open AI's goal is to build "highly autonomous systems that outperform humans at most economically valuable work." and Astra was a big jump in that. There still isn't a better model for computer use and vision/spatial work. Driving, Operating Robots, Video Editing, 3D modelling, graphics are all things Astra was >>> at than any other model. I'm sure you don't care about any of that so it's easy enough to slip by you but this analogy - "Now we've added a 4th and 5th axis, which is great for the 2% of parts that need that functionality." is dead wrong. | |
| ▲ | willchis 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | This is how I feel about it. I've stopped looking at all the scores of new releases and just look at the price to see how much usage I can get in a month. Seems like I'm not the only one either, from comments above like > "Opus 5.5 is so good that I don't want it to be replaced anytime soon. Stop training models[...]"_ |
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| ▲ | interestpiqued 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| 4 years is not that long in the grand scheme of things to be fair |
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| ▲ | dgellow 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Those points were true at the time and most are still true now. But they aren’t predictions. - it’s correct there isn’t much fresh data anymore - it’s correct that compute is scarce, that was 100% the case and a huge issue at the beginning of the year, it is better now but still scarce, and hardware is now way, way more expensive - it’s correct the finances don’t make sense But there is no way to know when a bubble pop, because it’s a psychological phenomenon across an extremely complicated distributed system (ie the stock and bonds markets) |
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| ▲ | agoodusername63 14 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | The amount of irrationality I see in the economy with AI makes me more convinced that the wall street bankrollers know very well they're throwing money into a pit, but it's a pit they're gambling will turn into some world hunger ending AI (that will somehow also keep them making money off of scarcity) never mind that theres no guarantee we'll get that mythical AI. Never mind that the societal reformations would also impact their revenue numbers. | |
| ▲ | moosehater 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I was thinking the same thing in terms of running out of data a few months ago. But aren't most gains in the past year+ due to reinforcement learning in some form? Which doesn't need "fresh data" per se, as the model effectively creates the data as it goes. As long as engineers can come up with proper environments, tasks/goals, rewards, and actions, I don't really see data being a limit to model improvement in an agentic sense. Maybe as a knowledge base | |
| ▲ | JacobAsmuth 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The new hardware (TPU v8 and VR) are more expensive but they are significantly cheaper per flop. e.g. many multiples more performance for only 2x the price. If I have some ML workload to run I can buy $x of Blackwell chips or I can buy significantly less $ worth of Vera Rubin chips to get the same performance. That's the key thing to keep in mind when you're talking about financials. | |
| ▲ | dumberquestions 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [dead] |
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| ▲ | dcchambers 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
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