| ▲ | skew-aberration 2 hours ago |
| I think LVT does have a history in US, e.g Pittsburgh. Also Georgism is 100% LVT -> A land tax alone has been the recommendation of many economists before and after George - From Smith, Riccardo, Mill to Friedman. Across classical, neoclassical, Keynesian, Austrian schools. If there's one thing economists can agree on, it's that land tax is better than income tax. |
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| ▲ | jdjdndndbd 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| Random thought, would be it be good to extend land tax to use of all common public goods. E.g. radio frequencies, mining, water, CO2 pollution. Things you own, licensed or consume that take from the common good. Obviously this need constant tweaking E.g. as new tech makes different things valuable. |
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| ▲ | skew-aberration 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Yes, it's been suggested that all scarce inputs to the economy should be taxed. And yes the idea of Georgism is to let market set the prices and tax based off of that. It does become complicated when the scarce inputs are things like highly specialized labor. Georgism wouldn't tax that monopoly, though our current systems (progressive income taxes) do. Many people would want a system which penalizes businesses for buying up e.g. all the veterinarians in a city and charging monopoly prices. | | |
| ▲ | marcosdumay 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Many people would want a system which penalizes businesses for buying up e.g. all the veterinarians in a city and charging monopoly prices. As powerful as taxes are to create change, you don't need to use them to solve every problem out there. |
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| ▲ | nemomarx 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The good news is that as different things become valuable their value changes, I guess? So if radio frequency stops being useful, the LVT put on it also drops pretty hard. The bad news is now you have to assess the value of a lot more things in order to do this (the value of clean waterways in a certain state, the value of IP taken away from the common culture) that may not have a direct market value. | | |
| ▲ | BobbyTables2 an hour ago | parent [-] | | How does one even put a direct financial value on clean water, clean air, lack of noise pollution, etc.? These things have different values to different people. While most everyone wants them in some form, there is a huge spectrum between “it won’t kill me this month” and “living in pristine Mt. Fuji”. Should private companies be allowed to pollute sparse remote areas with no population? Does it have a financial value if nobody goes there? |
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| ▲ | ro_sharp 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Yes, pricing negative externalities is a good idea. Unfortunately some are more or less expensive to price/enforce | |
| ▲ | mcdonje an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Other replies supporting taxing externalities and scarce resources are correct, but it can be generalized as taxing undesirable behavior to disincentivize it. | | |
| ▲ | notatoad an hour ago | parent [-] | | The generalization I would use is that governments should tax any scarce resource based on the amount of revenue it should produce if used effectively, rather than the revenue a given consumer can actually produces. Whether that is land, radio spectrum, or clean air. “Undesirable behavior” is overly broad to the point of being actively misleading, and gets you into sin taxes. smut or drugs are not the scarce resources anybody is talking about here. | | |
| ▲ | mcdonje 18 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Not misleading. Rent-seeking is an undesirable behavior, and it's the primary behavior a land value tax targets. Hoarding limited resources is an undesirable behavior. Making products that have negative environmental impacts is an undesirable behavior. |
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| ▲ | intrasight 28 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > I think LVT does have a history in US, e.g Pittsburgh Yeah, I looked at the map in the article and thought, wait a minute, why is Pennsylvania not colorcoded if Pittsburgh has a land value tax? So the map is only showing states that do? I didnt know there were any states that tax land. But do remember being confused when I moved to Pittsburgh by there being two separate taxes - for land and for property. I also think that the pittsburgh example shows that LVT is meaningless. All homeowners care about here is their total real estate tax. How it is split between land and property nobody pays attention to. |
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| ▲ | wahern 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| There was also a community in the deep south. And I once read a case study about a town that tried it in, IIRC, New Mexico. Full LVT never works. It always ends up shot through with exceptions and loopholes and, in the case study, inducing corruption. And it's all predictable, too, if you know anything about taxation policy and American political culture. For full LVT you'd need to start from a blank slate, not just from a legal perspective but from people's expectations about property ownership. |
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| ▲ | pampas 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The fact that economically right wing economists like Milton Friedman supported LVT is a great argument against landlord type labelling LVT as far-left and attempting to push the idea outside the Overton window.
I think the only valid argument against is it is that a significant LVT would punish those who've worked for their wealth as they've already paid significant income tax. But there are plenty of ways to introduce it gradually. Other arguments boil down to vested interests when I dig into it. |
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| ▲ | moritzwarhier 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It's the tax with the most positive impact AFAIK, especially when the other taxes are removed or at least adjusted accordingly. But it probably is also a cooperation problem, thus we prefer a slow but accelerating apocalypse. All these graduates need some value from their education after all, and if we reduce doing actively harmful things like the current tax system, others will be superior to us by transforming resources more quickly into waste. Since the latter process is extremely profitable, and again, so many people have education in optimizing the resources->money->waste pipeline, it would be a luddite and anti-science thought to listen to the science and stop this. Apart from that, there's a very common and profitable way of getting yield from people's everyday life while also rewarding them: cars. Live somewhere, but everything you do requires a vehicle. You'll see so many beautiful places. But you also have to rant about the evil urban population that pays for your car, gas, roads, parking space and special subsidies. It would be unlivable out there in the wilderness without this totally natural subsidization. |
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| ▲ | mohamedkoubaa an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| You can say that land tax might be better than income tax but it's hard to argue that both land tax and income tax is better than just income tax. This is the biggest reason why new tax modalities are considered unworkable. |
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| ▲ | comnetxr an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | We already have property tax + income tax, and property tax is land value + value of improvements. From TFA, the immediate proposal is just allowing the property tax to assess the land value and value of improvements at two different rates, with the rate on improvements decreasing to remove incentives against improvements. | |
| ▲ | skew-aberration an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | I think land + income is better. It's what I have where I live, and I'd like to see the balance shifted more towards land. | | |
| ▲ | mohamedkoubaa an hour ago | parent [-] | | This presupposes a balancing, when in reality it only ever goes up, and when it goes down it leads to lapses in services where the bill comes due later, with interest |
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| ▲ | dyauspitr 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
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| ▲ | secabeen 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > You have to pay the government rent in perpetuity. You are paying the government rent in perpetuity for the services they provide, including enforcement of your property rights. If you wish to live on land without paying government rent, you will need to go to a place without effective government. Today, that would be Syria, parts of Sudan, or Mali as examples. I doubt you want to live in those places as a 1st world resident, but if you do, there's little stopping you. | |
| ▲ | skew-aberration an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Where I live, the government owns about 40% of the value of my labour. I have to rent my own body in perpetuity. Meanwhile my second biggest expense is a mortgage I pay for land that nobody created. How much of the land value of your country do you currently own? A land value tax is likely to increase the amount of land you own (the profits of). I don't think US tracks land values as accurately as countries with some kind of land tax. | |
| ▲ | Sharlin an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It’s exactly the correct idea. If the value of your land rises as a positive externality, it only makes sense that you contribute some of that back to the society that effected the rise in the first place. | | |
| ▲ | bigstrat2003 an hour ago | parent [-] | | No it doesn't. You haven't realized any gains, therefore it's not just to tax you on that. | | |
| ▲ | skew-aberration an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Vast majority are realizing their gains as rent. A land tax would just be taxing those gains before they can be recycled into the real-estate market. Perfectly just in that case. If you're talking about an individual not using the land commercially - well theoretically the tax burden lowers the sale price. You don't pay both. At 100% land tax, the sale price would be zero. You pay only as you use the land. That also seems just to me. | |
| ▲ | cjbgkagh an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Well I have news for you… governments are coming for unrealized gains, they will not care if the money is on hand, they’ll fire sell your property if you don’t get a loan to pay the taxes. It’s a mathematical inevitability. And by that I mean governments are going broke and will try to find ever more creative ways to raise money, and unrealized gains, tax normalization, is one of the bigger leavers. |
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| ▲ | xboxnolifes an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The alternative is unbounded compounding of wealth until all land is held by very few hands. | |
| ▲ | pampas an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Not necessarily. It can be arranged so for owners with no income the tax accrues to the land and no cashflow is necessary until sale. | | |
| ▲ | gnopgnip an hour ago | parent [-] | | California and at least ten other states have programs for the elderly to defer paying property tax on their homestead and the heirs pay it. |
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| ▲ | tarkin2 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Paying taxes in perpetuity is what pretty much everyone does. |
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