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▲ tptacek 3 hours ago

This is a huge problem in US health care financing: we have a fee-for-service model, no price transparency, and a consumer base (insulated from a lot of the costs of procedures by indirect payment through employer-provided insurance) conditioned to think procedures are inherently good. We waste billions annually on procedures that shouldn't be delivered at all.

I'm fond of pointing out the stat (true as of a year ago) that Massachusetts (I think it's MA?) has more MRI machines than the entire country of Canada.

▲FlyingAvatar 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I would posit this is more of a function of Canada having too few machines, with a median wait of 10 weeks for an MRI. [1]

To me it's crazy that people are waiting an average of nearly 3 months to get imaging. This is probably after waiting a couple months for their doctor's appointment to get the MRI scheduled in the first place.

[1] [https://getmrifast.ca/mri-wait-times]

▲OsrsNeedsf2P an hour ago | parent | next [-]

One of the reasons I left Canada was it took me 6 months to get an MRI after a severe head injury in 2017. I have since gladly paid nearly 500k in taxes to other countries. Fuck Canada.

▲idontwantthis 22 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

If I were waiting that long I’d fly to SE Asia. I got one in Cambodia same week for $1200.

▲skylurk an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Clearly you had the means... was it not possible to pay for private healthcare?

▲excannuk 38 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

No, that's illegal. Thats what single payer means, only one payer is allowed [1].

Is meant to encourage rich people to support the health system since everyone's in it. But in reality the very wealthy go to Buffalo and immigrants visit their home countries.

It's also not lost on public policy experts that MAID has the potential of "solving" a lot of structural problems in Canadian health care and... long and behold MAID has expanded tremendously in ten years.

[1] with some exceptions largely grandfathered in

▲bigDinosaur 10 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

That's not what single payer actually means, since Australia has both a single payer public system and a separate private system. The part that allows these to both exist is that the public system has vast resources (i.e. an entire national/set of state governments) that can act as one for immense negotiating power. This does not preclude a private system from existing.

▲pfannkuchen 10 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

> But in reality the very wealthy go to Buffalo

This has to be a brand new sentence (post 1950s anyway).

▲brink an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

What does that have to do with the conversation here?

▲readthenotes1 an hour ago | parent [-]

Some countries have a dual insurance system that might allow wealthier people to get better access.

Think of Steve Jobs jumping to the head of the line for a liver transplant

▲pinkmuffinere an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That is kindof crazy! Imagine you are suspicious that something is awry in your soft tissue, in which case I think MRI is the main diagnostic (?). Then you don’t find out for ten weeks, plus some for analysis!

▲EA-3167 an hour ago | parent [-]

MRI's are expensive and difficult to amortize for poorer countries or ones that don't have a great healthcare system.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/282401/density-of-magnet...

Japan is a standout, and then you see most of the West just below them... Canada is way down the list.

▲excannuk 37 minutes ago | parent [-]

[dead]

▲gruez 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

>https://getmrifast.ca/mri-wait-times

It's sad that seemingly the top result for this search term is an AI slop lead-gen site, rather than the actual source:

>Disclaimer: Wait times shown are estimates based on publicly reported data from the Fraser Institute, CIHI, and provincial health authority reports.

▲nickff 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>"I'm fond of pointing out the stat (true as of a year ago) that Massachusetts (I think it's MA?) has more MRI machines than the entire country of Canada."

Long wait times (6-12 months+) for MRIs (due to a lack of both machines and technicians) are a frequent complaint by Canadians.

▲nradov 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Yep. Wealthy Canadians often come to the USA as medical tourists and pay cash to skip the queue at home for elective procedures like MRIs or joint replacements.

▲Teever 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

You can pay for MRIs in Canada. My friend needed one and he had it within the week for $800.

I think private MRIs have been around, at least in my province anyways, for close to 30 years.

▲Aurornis an hour ago | parent | next [-]

That’s about 2X as expensive as the cash pay MRIs near me in the United States, which is interesting. You don’t have to wait a week here, but that’s to be expected with how many MRI machines are all over the place. For specialty imaging like contrast or doing time resolved MRI you do have to wait a little longer to get someone qualified to do it properly. Some of those take a little more expertise that the cash walk-in places aren’t good for.

▲juliusdavies 5 minutes ago | parent [-]

$800 CAD is around $600 USD

▲CosmicShadow an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Hmm, that's good information to have, I had no idea. I just had an MRI appointment that I had completely forgotten about or what it was for I was waiting so long (and obviously not having the issue for anymore). I'll know this for next time and consider it.

▲EA-3167 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

$800!!

Jesus... I can get a chest-abdomen-pelvis MRI on US insurance for less than half of that, and the lead time is measured in weeks at most.

▲excannuk 31 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

▲Roland303 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

▲harimau777 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I think the actual issue is that America often has infinite wait times because people can't afford the procedure.

▲Roland303 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Oh yes I see, America bad, got it.

▲doubled112 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> I'm fond of pointing out the stat (true as of a year ago) that Massachusetts (I think it's MA?) has more MRI machines than the entire country of Canada.

I'm also quite fond of pointing out that Canada and the state of California have roughly the same populations.

Canada's population is incredibly spread out, but also concentrated in about 5 major cities.

When I needed an MRI on my brain is was roughly a week, and that was in a smaller (under 100K people) city.

It's a triage system, although I wouldn't want to suffer through a "less important" issue.

▲excannuk 28 minutes ago | parent [-]

[dead]

▲howunfortunate 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

At least most medications and interventions have to go through RCTs and tend to be quite standardized.

Don't even get me started with mental health therapy...

▲onlyrealcuzzo an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

A lot of surgery that isn't directly saving you from death is worthless if you're lucky...

▲nradov 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

People love to complain about health insurance companies denying claims and prior authorization requests. While there are frequent errors and abuses on the payer side, the reality is that about a fifth of all treatments are "low value care" which aren't justified by evidence-based clinical practice guidelines and may even harm patients. If we want to reduce healthcare costs and improve outcomes then we've got to get that under control.

https://www.bloomsbury.com/us/price-we-pay-9781635574128/

▲kibwen 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

To be fair to your latter point, Massachusetts is arguably the biomedical research capital of the world, those MRI machines are being put to research purposes.

▲stego-tech 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I’m reminded of a quote from my biomed days: “If there’s ever a zombie apocalypse, you can bet it started in Cambridge.”

I just thought it an amusing anecdote until COVID, and then realized it’s less that said virus would be developed here and more that we have the business idiots to let it loose.

▲gerdesj 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Careful which Cambridge you are on about. I take you are referring to Cambridge MA, US and not Cambridge, Cambridgeshire off of England, UK.

I'll note that COVID-19 "broke out" in Wuhan a city which has a virology laboratory nearby - the Wuhan Institute of Virology, who perform research on viruses.

I'm sure that is completely incidental to the pandemic of 2020-21. Clearly, some rather nasty live food markets are to blame.

It wasn't your numpties wot did it then, it was another lot that time!

▲excannuk 24 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

[dead]

▲alexnewman 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

There’s no evidence that Covid started in wuhan. The wet market was ruled out.

▲aleksejs 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

That's an odd point to make when in the actual world we live in, Cambridge was where the first COVID vaccine was developed.

▲excannuk 23 minutes ago | parent [-]

[dead]

▲readthenotes1 an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

An elderly relative of mine went to get an MRI to prove the occult fracture of the sacrum that was hobbling him.

It took about 12 hours, much of it waiting for his blood pressure to subside low enough to get admitted (a pre-requisite for the MRI).

This is in a city with of about 750k people and nowhere near Massachusetts.

▲nradov 9 minutes ago | parent [-]

Did that study involve contrast?

▲pengaru 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It's not strictly a US health care problem either - I've been dumbfounded by foreign coworkers pressing for totally unnecessary medical interventions as if there's no risk associated with doing such things. It's most apparent from the socialized states where the healthcare is ~free.

My impression is this is a modern civilization stupidity in general.

apropos Dead Kennedys track: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVULKYbAeEo