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soonnow 2 hours ago

To add a b it of context. They do not want to confiscate housing. They do want to pay landlords, though below current (very high) rates. Also this would only apply to private real-estate companies not individual owners.

And they can't govern alone, so I think it's unlikely that this plan is actually implemented as originally planned. The likely coalition would contain 3 parties.

jttnr 28 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

To add further context: in 2021, Berlin residents voted in a Volksentscheid on whether the government should compulsorily purchase back housing stock from large private real-estate companies. The proposal received 58% support, but the CDU/SPD coalition in office at the time just ignored it. This now at least partially reflects in the votes. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksentscheid_%E2%80%9EDeutsc...

fabian2k 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

They are saying that this is what the want to do. They can't do that because it would be illegal.

This is not just any law, it's in the German constitution (https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/gg/art_14.html).

4gotunameagain an hour ago | parent [-]

The article you linked can be clearly interpreted in a way that would make it possible.

fabian2k 25 minutes ago | parent [-]

There is no way that paying below market value here would amount to a fair evaluation of the owner's interests.

aurareturn 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

  They do want to pay landlords, though below current (very high) rates.
In San Francisco, NIMBYs secretly support laws like this. This basically guarantees that many builders will do the math and conclude that it doesn't make sense to build housing in San Francisco.

New large condo buildings have to sell 30% of the units at below market rate. This causes many viable projects to never get built.

So laws like this are sold to renter voters as a way to lower housing costs, but NIMBYs secretly love it. Over time, renters pay more in rent because there is less supply due to builders not building. However, a lucky few renters who were here early will get below market rents.

Perfect examples of voters voting for a short term fix but pay more in long term. And voting for themselves while screwing future renters.

vrganj 2 hours ago | parent [-]

The fix is for the city to be the builder, like it is in Vienna.

The City of Vienna is the largest landlord in Europe. It is also the only major European capital without a rent cost crisis.

fileeditview 33 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

You would think that people could learn from examples. Sadly it rarely happens.

specproc 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Similarly UK cities built their own housing, up until Thatcher and Right to Buy. Costs spiralled out of control after that.

Most urgent intervention required in the UK, IMO. We're choking to death on the cost of housing.

dirasieb 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

>it's not confiscation, you're just forced to sell at a price i decide is fair

sound logic

monegator an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Given it affects PE funds that have gouged up all the supply, yes that is sound logic.

My province's capital has 43% of unhinabitated houses. They are not even on the market, as we are in a housing crisis. Vast majority of them are property of large housing groups that are backed by black rock and company.

The same firms are manouvering the politicians to get approvals to build modern monstruosities, because there is a housing crisis, but they build only luxury homes thst cost too much and remain unhinabitated.

Yes it is sound logic to force big conglomerates to dissolve by law. Law should aim for the public good.

mschuster91 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Most of the affected housing used to be government owned, sold at firesale prices after the CDU Diepgen government thoroughly wrecked the state finances with a banking scandal at the end of the 90s.

The large investor landlords purchased the homes and often didn't even do the bare minimum in upkeep. The real estate nevertheless appreciated massively because of Berlin getting more and more popular.

It therefore makes sense to nationalize this housing stock, and I'd see a value comprised of "original purchase price, upkeep and inflation-plus-3%-tied appreciation" as fair value. Maybe even less because they extracted 20 years worth of rent payments from the properties already.

tirant 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The reality is that the actual large-scale sell-off of public housing was carried out under the SPD–PDS (now The Left) red-red coalition led by Klaus Wowereit in 2004. for prices of around 30.000€ per unit.

mschuster91 an hour ago | parent [-]

Which is precisely what I said:

> sold at firesale prices after the CDU Diepgen government thoroughly wrecked the state finances with a banking scandal at the end of the 90s.

Wowereit didn't have much of an alternative, the cash coffers were drained.

IshKebab 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I don't know if that's really fair though because it's unlikely that the people that benefited from the fire sale are still the owners.

It would make more sense just enforce maintenance standards and improve renters rights. You can't really legislate supply & demand.

698969 an hour ago | parent [-]

Still the same companies Deutsche Wohnen and Vonovia but I agree with the second part.

Their yearly profits are capped because of the Mietpreisbremse (rent control) law since all the old buildings that they bought would fall under it, so it would've been better to put the money towards either building new state-owned housing or helping the tenants enforce their rights.

The laws are there to protect tenants against neglect from the landlord but enforcement takes multiple months which is not a reasonable timeline if you have a problem in your apartment and the consequences for landlord are mostly just reducing the rent for that time by a certain percentage which doesn't make a difference if the rents are already cheap because of the Mietpreisbremse, so it would also be good to introduce fines but not sure if Germany's legal framework allows for that.

bmacho 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[edit - deleted]

backhold an hour ago | parent [-]

With the disclaimer that I am neither German nor familiar with the policy under discussion,

Confiscation with (some) remuneration is still confiscation. Is your comment satirical?

34 minutes ago | parent [-]
[deleted]
paganel 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You need sound logic against the evils of neo-liberalism, there's nothing logic about housing being as expensive as it now is.

tirant 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The logic is defined by demand. Currently Berlin is under high demand, and that’s why drives prices up. On top of that many rents, around 12% are paid by the job center, which also drives prices up. That’s around 250.000 housing units paid by someone else’s money. That’s the scandal.

paganel an hour ago | parent [-]

> Currently Berlin is under high demand, and that’s why drives prices up

Yeah, I know the written logic of all this, but as things stand right now we didn't have homelessness East of the Wall back in the day, while the West had. That should have been reason enough to throw all this capitalist and pervert logic under the bus, but I understand how come the highly paid programmers in here are happy with the current economic system, homelessness be damned. Which is to say, you're telling me nothing new.

tirant an hour ago | parent [-]

Do you know why there was not homelessness in the DDR?

Because it was forbidden by law. You were forced to be put in an institution or directly went to prison. Check Section 249 of the DDR Criminal Code.

And by the way, the DDR suffered from chronic housing shortage. People were cramped in barracks with not bathroom and no heating. Technically housed but in actually povert level of housing. It was an absolute disaster.

paganel an hour ago | parent [-]

> Because it was forbidden by law. You were forced to be put in an institution or directly went to prison

Seems like a very good law, don't you think? And this reminded me of how come one of my favorite childhood books from when I was 3 or 4 here in Romania was about DDR constructors building apartment flats, loved that book and loved the spirit behind it.

> People were cramped in barracks with not bathroom and no heating

There were? Back in the '70s and '80s? You sure? I don't remember it that way here in Romania back in the '80s, and I know that the DDR had a much better economic condition than us, Socialist Republic of Romania.

tpm 3 minutes ago | parent [-]

> You were forced to be put in an institution or directly went to prison

> Seems like a very good law, don't you think?

It's great if you hate human rights and freedoms. Basically you hate people.

giacomoforte 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It's a reflection of the demand from people who want to live in Berlin.

698969 an hour ago | parent [-]

Correction: It's a reflection of demand from people who already live in Berlin. That's who were allowed to vote in the referendum.

They don't care about the elasticity of the market, or the demand from people who would want to live in Berlin in the future.

They already have an apartment, and at pretty low prices because nearly everything built before 2014 is subject to rent control,

I'd guess most people just voted for it because in their eyes "government promised to take apartment from my landlord and lower my rent even more".

4gotunameagain 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The "free market" (which has been demonstrated to not be free at all) has no place in basic needs such as housing.

Rent extraction is utterly counterproductive for a society.

Housing should not be a commodity.

spankalee 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Housing should be a commodity. Commodities are fungible, plentiful, and easily tradable.

Housing right now is the opposite of a commodity: it's a boutique investment for individuals whose price is propped up by regulations that artificially limit supply.

repsilat 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Yes, the grandparent scored an own goal with their aside

>> The "free market" (which has been demonstrated to not be free at all)

The Berlin rental market suffers under strong government intervention, and would benefit from being much freer.

4gotunameagain an hour ago | parent [-]

This is not true. Two more strong government interventions that would benefit the housing market:

- Tax empty flats to death

- Disallow corporate ownership of residential property

4gotunameagain an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

I do not think that housing should be broadly available for trade in global markets, in the typical definition of a commodity.

That enables mass buyouts of housing from corporation which leads to rent extraction and a myriad of woes.

tirant an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The only reason you enjoy cheap food is because of the free market.

Housing in many countries is not part of a free market but part of a monopoly where the government decides how much, how many, the what and the when the houses can be built. If it was a real free market, the issue would have been long solved.

4gotunameagain 44 minutes ago | parent [-]

The only reason I enjoy cheap food is the industrialisation of agriculture and the subsequent increase in yields.

P.s. the EU already decides how much, how many, what and when will be planted, through subsidising. And it's going quite well.

derektank an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Surely, if we are decommodifying basic needs, our first priority should be food, not housing, right? How has nationalization of agriculture worked in the past?

WithinReason 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Who builds the houses then?

ImPleadThe5th 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Who builds all those bridges, roads, power plants, and other public works projects? Maybe them?

Also government formed co-ops. Find people who want a flat and agree on rent before you build it. As the loan is paid off rent becomes substantially cheaper. The second best time to plant a tree is today.

It also doesn't need to be the entire housing stock, just enough to help keep rent low (see Vienna).

mschuster91 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Governments directly, cooperatives or non-profit organizations. The Churches used to be pretty active in that space as well to invest tithes, with rents paying for common-welfare projects.

IshKebab 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Yeay communism! They built such lovely tower blocks.

vrganj 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Yeah like that ugly drab city of ... Vienna??

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2024/jan/10/the-soc...