| ▲ | expedition32 2 hours ago |
| After WW2 all European countries had massive housing shortages. It was not capitalism that solved it but heavy government involvement. In a span a few decades millions of people were re-housed.
The free market is remarkably terrible at pumping out houses fast. |
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| ▲ | dash2 an hour ago | parent | next [-] |
| Hmm, I got curious and read Wikipedia: > Levittowns are six large suburban housing developments, three of which are actually named "Levittown." They were created in the United States (including one in Puerto Rico) by William J. Levitt and his company Levitt & Sons. Built after World War II for returning white veterans and their new families, the communities offered attractive alternatives to cramped central city locations and apartments. The Veterans Administration and the Federal Housing Administration (FHA) guaranteed builders that qualified veterans could buy housing for a fraction of rental costs. Under Levitt & Sons, Levittown housing would maintain racial covenants that excluded non-White would-be buyers. Italics added. Seems the government was somewhat involved in the US too. Of course, now the reason "the free market is terrible at pumping out houses" is government regulation too.... |
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| ▲ | ChickeNES 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Yet in the US, it was developers following the Levittown model that resulted in tons and tons of single family homes, so I fail to see how the free market is terrible at "pumping out houses fast"? |
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| ▲ | mschild an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | The market is not terrible pumping out houses fast, but the current market conditions mean that said houses/apartments are not affordable for most people. The average rent in Berlin (and other German cities) is not very high but that's because a lot of flats still run on a very old contract. If you're moving to Berlin, finding an apartment is incredibly difficult, even if you're willing to spend a lot of money. My grandmother lives by herself in a 90sqm flat in a really nice area and pays 400 Euros a month. In the last 10 years she tried to find a smaller flat (30-40 sqm) for herself but the cheapest she could find was 750. So she stays where she is and just doesn't use 2 of the rooms she has except for storage. In the meantime, a friend of mine moved to Berlin and couldn't find a decent 60sqm flat for less than 1400 Euros. The only way to get those affordable rents is either knowing someone who is moving out or getting super lucky by finding and getting it through a public ad. Massenbesichtigung (mass viewings) are not uncommon. The agent will publish a public timeslot and literally hundreds of people lined around the block will show up to view a single flat. | | |
| ▲ | tirant 33 minutes ago | parent [-] | | The main reason new housing is extremely expensive has to do with regulations themselves. It costs a lot of money to build a new apartment building because land where you are allowed to build is regulated by the State. Also the State requires many regulations that increase unnecessarily the costs, and most of all in the name of the ideology. For example, housing standards of Japan and the US, which are way cheaper and still serve two of the richest countries in the world, would never be allowed in Germany. That makes housing unaffordable and drives people into poverty. |
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| ▲ | gambiting an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Well, think whether the market conditions that lead to it could be recreated today, and then you'll see how the free market fails to deliver a lot of housing fast. Developers have long ago realized it's better for them to pump out fewer houses with more profit margin slower, than lots of houses with little profit margins. They get a planning permission on a giant site for a 1000 houses but only build 50 a year to not disrupt the high prices they can charge for each unit. That's free market for you right now. | | |
| ▲ | ChickeNES an hour ago | parent [-] | | This is such a fundamental misunderstanding of how the housing market works, and totally ignores apartments/midrises/highrises. The problem with housing in the US lies with overregulation (mostly in the form of zoning). I know this well, as someone who has attended numerous planning meetings in Chicago, I have seen many buildings reduced in unit count solely due to NIMBYs (mostly retired people, as these meetings are often during the day or the immediately 5-7pm time when many people are still commuting home from work). | | |
| ▲ | gambiting 4 minutes ago | parent [-] | | No idea about the US, but that is indeed how it happens on this side of the pond - developers rarely build mid or high rises, it's all single family homes. |
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| ▲ | andsoitis 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Then the govt. should build new homes; I'm not sure that taking homes from people ("nationalize") creates supply. |
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| ▲ | Mashimo an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | And the party agrees with you: https://dielinke.berlin/vergesellschaftung/ > »Durch Enteignung entsteht keine einzige neue Wohnung.« > Das stimmt, aber darum geht es auch nicht. The nationalization is not about supply, but to stop the price hikes. They also want to invest in new affordable homes at the same time. Or so they claim. | |
| ▲ | usernametaken29 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | But it does. There’s immense amount of houses that are unused because they’re part of speculation, and it’s easier to leave them empty than to deal with tenants and their rights. This is an extremely well documented, systemic issue in large European metropolis and especially in Berlin.
Forcing existing property to be used immediately adds supply, and it also lowers prices. Exactly the things large property developers do not want. But I don’t give a shit what they want. I want affordable rent. | | |
| ▲ | inglor_cz an hour ago | parent [-] | | immense amount of houses that are unused because they’re part of speculation, ... This is an extremely well documented, systemic issue in large European metropolis and especially in Berlin. Source? Deutschlandatlas says that Berlin has whole 2 percent of empty apartments for all reasons, which is less then half of German average [0] Some of those apartments are being remodeled, some are just in the period where the previous tenant moved out and the next moved in. There are 16 thousand long-term empty apartments, which looks like a huge number, but it is only 0.8 percent of the total. [1] Even if those 16 thousand apartments could be all put to market (some have legal barriers, like being part of a complicated litigation), that easing would not last even for a single mayor's tenure. Last year alone, Berlin grew up by 17 thousand people. [2] It was not an extraordinary year. ALL that money that the Linke wants to sink into old housing should be spent to build new one, just to accomodate the arrivals. [0] https://www.deutschlandatlas.bund.de/DE/Karten/Wie-wir-wohne... [1] https://www.berlin.de/sen/wohnen/rechtliches/zweckentfremdun... [2] https://www.statistik-berlin-brandenburg.de/106-2025/ | | |
| ▲ | usernametaken29 an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Thanks for actually proving my point! 2% of 2.07 million residential buildings is 54 thousand empty buildings. Let’s say an average number of 2 people per building. Hey, we could house 100 thousand people today. I think that would solve the annual 17 thousand growth for the coming years. And you’ve done nothing, spent nearly no money, no planning involved. Just a single law to force people to rent, and everyone will have housing.
Hmm, crazy isn’t it? | | |
| ▲ | tirant 27 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | I just bought a house in Germany. It will remain unused for around 6 months due to renovation. It is naive to believe that any empty house is empty due to speculation. My grandmother died some years ago, my family wanted to sell the house as they didn’t need it. It took 3 years to sell it because it’s in a location with no demand plus 6-12 months to arrange the inheritance legal details. You would say, the price was too high then! It was sold for €30K, a garden farmhouse with 6 bedrooms, garden and garage. It’s inevitable that some houses are out of the market for some time due to many different reasons. | |
| ▲ | 698969 30 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Berlin already has fines against letting an apartment sit empty without reason, if they're empty, they're empty for a reason or eating the fine is cheaper than the cost of renting it out. | |
| ▲ | inglor_cz 34 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | It is not buildings, but apartments. And you completely la-la-ed your way around what I wrote and considered them ALL as long-term speculatively withheld apartments, while only about a THIRD of them are. Which means that only about two years' growth could be accomodated like this. Then, what? Given that the city has spent all its money on buying out old stock? Zero unoccupied housing is unachievable anywhere but in a dilapidated slum, because apartments must get remodeled from time to time. If you remodel an apartment every 15 years and it takes three months (a rather optimistic timeline), you already have 1,6 per cent of the housing stock out of the market inevitably, because 3 months is 1/60th of 15 years. If anything, only 2 per cent of the Berlin apartments being out of the market indicates that they already don't get enough maintenance! Then you have pauses between tenants. If an average tenant stays for 8 years and it takes about a month to fix the most basic things once he moves out, and find new people, then you have 1 per cent of the housing stock momentarily unoccupied just due to this. Again, Berlin having only 2 per cent of the stock out of the market indicates that the changing of tenants is already overoptimized, with not enough time to vet new ones and fix smaller things: one moves in on the heels of another. Then you have a certain small percentage of apartments being part of litigations, either commercial or inheritance-related. Inevitable. Companies split, people die, and not everyone has their papers in Ordnung. You seem to be claiming that all those mechanisms can be compressed to zero, and that all the apartments that are unoccupied due to them can be put on the market by fiat. How? Will you ban apartment remodeling? That's the way to produce - fully occupied - ghettoes. |
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| ▲ | vrganj an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | I don't know what you're trying to achieve by comparing it to the total. It's not about the proportion of empty houses to full ones, it's about the proportion of empty houses and people with no house. The full ones are a problem already solved, there's no point in pulling that into the comparison. | | |
| ▲ | usernametaken29 an hour ago | parent [-] | | We’ve established how many empty houses there are and how much further demand there will be, and guesstimated that with the current empty apartments, we can cover almost 6 years of the cities growth.
That is, if you do absolutely nothing but to force people to rent their homes.
Now in reality, we’ll do more than that. Both the government and public sector are and will continue to build houses. But those are just projections. The existing houses, well, exist. So let’s make sure we use them.
Whenever this argument comes up people get extremely defensive for no good reason whatever. It will make a significant impact to the housing market if we force stalled housing to become available. Sure, we can and must do more than just that, but why not start with the cheapest and easiest thing we can today? Because it’s someone’s private property and we can’t even demand they rent it out in a housing crisis????
Come on now. Stop the madness. | | |
| ▲ | inglor_cz 12 minutes ago | parent [-] | | How many private investors will be willing to build any new houses in a city which just forcibly bought thousands of houses from someone else? The government may (let us forget, for the sake of the argument, that all major parties in Germany are NIMBY in practice), but for what money? The forced buyout was not free, the German constitution won't allow for that. They may even be sentenced to pay the full market price. That alone will make Berlin bankrupt. | | |
| ▲ | vrganj 10 minutes ago | parent [-] | | You talk as if there wasn't a historic example just next door for how well government buildout of apartments could work. The City of Vienna was a place of misery and slums before their socialist party built out enormous amounts of high-quality housing stock, financed by high taxes on luxury goods. It to this day tops global quality of live rankings as a result. We have the empirical data. No need to speculate. |
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| ▲ | rkachowski an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It's not from people, it's from corporations that rent out 3000 or more apartments. | | |
| ▲ | tirant 26 minutes ago | parent [-] | | My cheapest and best experiences when renting have been always from big corporations due to economies of scale. Fighting against these companies will only drive prices higher. It is stupid. |
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| ▲ | mschuster91 an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | We did but stopped in the 90s after the infamous Neue Heimat scandal that got brought upon us by the Conservatives. |
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| ▲ | tmnvix 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Same story in NZ. |
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| ▲ | GHanku an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | bluegatty an hour ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Germany doe not have a housing shortage problem, it's another set of problems. (Edit: these are economic problems, productivity, bureaucracy, and all sorts of other things showing up as housing problems) They will have to wail until after WW3 because Russia is openly threatening action, European governments are trying to prepare their citizens, German populists want to return to 'normal relations' with Russia, which means 'use our money to invade and kill everyone to the East of us, just not us'. Germany and Europe is in for a very rough ride. Were it not for the war situation, then we could say this is 'healthy political turmoil' - but this is at a time when outside parties will take advantage of European disunity. |
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| ▲ | cedilla an hour ago | parent [-] | | Berlin has a massive shortage. Vacancy rates are at about 1.5%. Functioning housing markets are at about 3%. | | |
| ▲ | bluegatty an hour ago | parent [-] | | It's wrong to suggest that vacancy rates are are necessarily sign of housing dysfunction. Areas that are attractive to live always have low vacancy rates, because there's a reason that people want to live there. The assumption that 'as many people ought to be able to live in a neighbourhood as should want to live there' - implied by the 'vacancy rate' issue just means 'every attractive area turns into Hong Kong'. While there can be very good reason for more building as well - socialized housing is almost never the answer to that. It has a role in some situations, but generally not on the aggregate like that. Usually this will have to do with permits, regulation - and frankly workers. Nobody wants to do the kind of labour necessary to build homes, and it's extremely hard to find workers to do that kind of work, which to anyone paying the least bit of attention should be a pretty big paradox. 'City overflowing with people who want homes to live don't want to make homes in which to live' Probably there's a lot of bureaucracy to clean out and that's a good place to start. |
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