| ▲ | theptip 5 hours ago |
| > LLMs are vectorial databases You use a bunch of technical-sounding words here to make it sound like you understand. But to be clear, nobody understands why the evolved weights of a NN make the decisions that they do. Almost nothing is understood about the actual representations used for nontrivial concepts, decision algorithms, etc. If you look at the field of mechanistic interpretability, compared to “GOFAI” like learned decision trees, an LLM is completely opaque. |
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| ▲ | strangecasts 9 minutes ago | parent | next [-] |
| > If you look at the field of mechanistic interpretability, compared to “GOFAI” like learned decision trees, an LLM is completely opaque. I think the field deserves more credit than that, there are plenty of interpretability tools like * natural language autoencoders for explanations of activations: https://transformer-circuits.pub/2026/nla/index.html (demo at https://www.neuronpedia.org/llama3.3-70b-it/nla ) * easier-to-interpret language model families like Backpack models: https://aclanthology.org/2023.acl-long.506/ * attribution graphs to trace internal reasoning steps: https://www.anthropic.com/research/open-source-circuit-traci... (demo at https://www.neuronpedia.org/gemma-2-2b/graph) * functional analyses which have identified how LLMs do arithmetic - https://arxiv.org/html/2502.00873v1 - and how refusal happens: https://arxiv.org/abs/2406.11717 * data attribution methods linking training data to specific attention heads https://arxiv.org/abs/2601.21996 If we could give a comprehensive and global explanation of an LLM's behavior in a single paragraph, we wouldn't need the model to begin with, but that doesn't mean there's absolutely no understanding of the model internals whatsoever |
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| ▲ | semiquaver 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I’m shocked how many otherwise well-informed people don’t understand or agree with this very fundamental fact of just how little we actually understand about why LLMs work as well as they do. They figure “it’s science, of course there’s math and theory behind it.” AI research is almost as purely empirical as the gradient descent loops its practitioners use to optimize their models. “Why” anything at all works is barely an afterthought. |
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| ▲ | chrisjj 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > I’m shocked how many otherwise well-informed people don’t understand or agree with this very fundamental fact of just how little we actually understand about why LLMs work as well as they do. Well-informed people understand that LLMs work as well as they do for the same reasons as horoscopes, fortune-telling and homeopathy. | | |
| ▲ | ohyoutravel an hour ago | parent [-] | | They work great for banging out POC apps or writing boilerplate code. This is a real use. | | |
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| ▲ | bigyabai 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > why LLMs work as well as they do. That's a very different claim from being "poorly understood" though. The emergent properties of any system with billions of parameters is hard to understand completely, that's the fault of data science more than computer science or even mathematics. | | |
| ▲ | semiquaver 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | I think ”poorly understood” is accurate. Understanding has levels. How brains think is also poorly understood. | | |
| ▲ | bigyabai 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | I disagree, because you can represent the constituent parts of any AI model as code and data. We can reliably build AI with this knowledge, but not brains. Understanding does have layers, and that's why "poorly understood" is a meaningless goalpost. A book can be well understood without researching the gematria behind character's the names when you write them in reverse. An LLM can be well-understood even if you don't comprehensively test each quantization for miraculous unexpected behavior at the FFN level. | | |
| ▲ | nvme0n1p1 an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Your DNA is merely data, and humans can reliably make more of it too. | |
| ▲ | s1artibartfast an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | A book can be poorly understood if you know it's made out of paper and ink, but can't read. The contents would be are meaningless symbols and numbers. You might note that some patterns of symbols repeat, but be completely clueless why or what it represents. Notably, you could still print them all day. |
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| ▲ | coldtea 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| >But to be clear, nobody understands why the evolved weights of a NN make the decisions that they do. We might not understand particular "emergent" capabilities, but the low level mechanism is not just understood, but a deterministic algorithm with a handful of basic componets, that are well understood themselves. |
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| ▲ | conscion 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > We might not understand particular "emergent" capabilities The emergent capabilities are the only capabilities we care about | | |
| ▲ | coldtea 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | For allignment maybe. For the core functionality and the optimizations we don't really need to know how the emergent capabilities decide on particular answers. Which is why we could build LLMs before those features ...emerged for us to see, and why we can just code LLMs with the numerical NN algorithms we use, and do now have to go in and change individual weights. |
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| ▲ | gizajob 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Please go on, else you risk sounding like the person you’re criticising. The structure of the neural network is somewhat opaque because it’s hard to understand as the individual weights can’t be usefully interrogated, and naturally, it comes from big datasets which a human brain can’t really absorb in toto. Your comment was interesting so I’d like more of it. |
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| ▲ | tantalor 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| They don't "make decisions". That's like saying "my d20 decided to roll a 17" |
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| ▲ | nonethewiser 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | But isnt the point that it did roll a 17. And no one knows exactly how (in the case of LLMs)? Therefor any description of the conclusion should be thought of as an anology. Decided, randomly accessed, etc. | | |
| ▲ | semi-extrinsic 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It's actually no different for dice than for LLMs. Explaining accurately the reason for the exact outcome of any given dice roll someone makes would be stupendously hard. It would require lots of instrumentation and math and be poorly transferrable to another surface, another player, etc. But even so people don't say that we don't understand how dice work. Saying that we don't understand how LLMs work is exactly like saying we don't understand how dice, or tires, or golf ball shots work. Or like the old myth that we don't understand how bumblebees fly. | | |
| ▲ | jacquesm 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | That's precisely the point: you may be able to understand dice statistically and over the course of long rolls of dice you can extract some properties of the dice. But you won't ever understand any particular roll of the dice. | | |
| ▲ | fc417fc802 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | But importantly for dice we do understand the overarching principles that give rise to this. And dice don't output coherent sentences. Meanwhile in LLM land the analogous "roll of the dice" can result in a coherent response in natural language. | | |
| ▲ | skydhash an hour ago | parent [-] | | If you use a loaded dice, you can be pretty confident about where it will lands. It may not be 100% accurate, but can be quite close to certain. Without training the weight are pure noises. After training, it leans towards coherent sentences and particular statements. | | |
| ▲ | fc417fc802 25 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Yes, and I believe my point still stands. We thoroughly understand the principle by which a loaded die can be intentionally biased despite not being able to predict the outcome of any given throw due to the system in question being a chaotic one. In contrast, we do not understand LLMs in the same way (nor biological brains). Claiming that anything of that nature is simply biased towards coherent output seems entirely reductive to me - the question is how such coherence arises in the first place. There is no meaning encoded or computation performed by the particular pathway a die travels through the chaotic landscape. Sure an argument can be made that it's "just" a next token predictor thus how is it really any different from a markov model? Yet the output is not even remotely the same. |
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| ▲ | 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | Cthulhu_ 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | If nobody knows exactly how, then "at random" sounds about right and the results should be treated as such. That is, in this case, it should not be used to influence decisions that can start a war. | | |
| ▲ | semiquaver 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I agree wholeheartedly about your second sentence, but “we made this artifact and don’t know why the thing it does looks spookily like cognition” and “this artifact makes decisions at random” are obviously distinct categories and pretending otherwise is silly. | | |
| ▲ | watwut 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | We know why it looks like cognition. Because OpenAI and Antropic put a lot of effort and training to humanize the output and make it sound like a person. Regardless of negative consequences it brings. They have that project of creating tech god which will save the unborn people thousands years in the future ... so people living now dont matter. That is why. |
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| ▲ | krapp 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | People will just roll their eyes at you and say "the human mind is nothing but a dice roll too" and call you a slope-headed neanderthal before continuing apace. |
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| ▲ | reichstein 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Try "Emitted". That's what it did, with no analogy needed. (But, to be the devil's advocate: the fake can be said about the output of anyone participating here.) |
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| ▲ | s1artibartfast 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Sure they do! Where are you confused? Can you show me where a human or a dog makes decisions | |
| ▲ | rayiner 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | ... neither do you. |
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| ▲ | Betelbuddy 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| >> an LLM is completely opaque And despite that, although they are not like that in practice as there are too many uncontrolled variables, with temperature at zero, for the same input they produce always the same reply. |
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| ▲ | irishcoffee 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Ha, they sure don’t. | | |
| ▲ | Betelbuddy 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | They do. Just train your own LLM, not that difficult, and you will have a more controlled environment and you will see they do. |
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| ▲ | chrisjj 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > with temperature at zero, for the same input they produce always the same reply. Nonsense. https://thinkingmachines.ai/blog/defeating-nondeterminism-in... | | |
| ▲ | coldtea 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | BS. Run them sequentially on a single core, and without fancy speedups enabled, and they do. The algorithm is determinstic. Any non-determinism present with 0 temperature it's not some mysterious LLM-inherent property, but something that can be seen in any large program taking advantage of multi-core, floating point, and other CPU-based parallelism optimization. | | |
| ▲ | hashstring an hour ago | parent [-] | | Exactly, this is correct. People often assume they are not because they can ask the same query to the same model and get differences in output, but wrongly conclude that this is some inherent LLM trait, instead of non-determinism added on top of it because of implementational choices that were made. |
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| ▲ | 4lx87 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| We understand how networks compute decisions, though explaining every internal influence remains difficult. |
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| ▲ | slopinthebag 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| thats no different from not understanding why a sufficiently complex and obfuscated binary of a program "makes decisions" |
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| ▲ | bix6 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Isn’t it convenient that nobody understands? How could we possibly regulate something that isn’t understood? It’s like social media all over again. We can’t be responsible for someone else’s content; it’s not us so you can’t penalize us!! |
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| ▲ | nonethewiser 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > Isn’t it convenient that nobody understands? How could we possibly regulate something that isn’t understood? You mean like the human body? The brain? | | |
| ▲ | GolfPopper 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | If LLMs are like humans, then OpenAI and Anthropic are like slave traders. | |
| ▲ | bix6 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | My point is that they are using a similar playbook to avoid taking responsibility. | | |
| ▲ | lukan 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Who is not taking responsibility? You think that anaylst that copy pasted AI slob of such a critical information will be rewarded? | | |
| ▲ | Cthulhu_ 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | It just feels like the companies behind AIs are spinning their own poor monitoring and criminal (digital) trespassing into something they can't be held responsible for. Even though they are, of course. In the hugging face incident, Anthropic should pay for damages and a fine for malicious hacking. In this incident, whoever signed off on using the tool, and whoever said the intel was good should both be prosecuted or at the very least reprimanded (whatever the rules for a bad interpretation of intel is) and the tool put on hold. |
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| ▲ | semiquaver 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | “Convenient” sure sounds like trying to allude to a conspiracy theory. Is that what you’re doing? Why not state your claims or questions directly? |
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