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rayiner 2 days ago

Americans and Western Europeans have no idea what it means to come from a country where the government can’t maintain a monopoly on violence, and when you say stuff like this it comes across as complaining about “first world problems.”

What’s happening in South Africa is a phenomenon that happens around the third world. And it’s an enormous tax on half of the human population, even in relatively affluent countries like Mexico. Even in many of the countries that don’t suffer from internal destabilization by non-state actors, the solution has been dictators like Saddam Hussain in Iraq or El-Sisi in Egypt. It’s a subject that warrants thoughtful analysis and problem solving by people in the first world. We need you guys to think about how you overcame those problems so those lessons can be applied to countries that desperately need the help.

potamic a day ago | parent | next [-]

The first world overcame those problems by extracting obscene amounts of wealth from the third world to make their populations handsomely rich. When you have everything and lead a comfortable life you're more likely to spend your free time at the pub than go enlist with some private gang or militia. If you look at all the places where organised crime is rampant, the common denominator is always extreme poverty. People living a wretched life, unable to meet their basic needs, with no glimmer of hope for their future are just begging to be recruited into a gang for even the smallest of incentives.

rayiner 16 hours ago | parent [-]

> The first world overcame those problems by extracting obscene amounts of wealth from the third world to make their populations handsomely rich.

This is incorrect, bordering on flat-earthism. It's also impossible if you think about it for more than two seconds. If the "third world" had possessed "obscene amounts of wealth" to begin with, the first world never would have been able to "extract" it.

potamic 14 hours ago | parent [-]

Even a cursory search will find you literature from respected economists on this subject. There may be debate on how much wealth transfer or the actual impact of it, but there's wide consensus on the fact that there was. Comparing these ideas with flat-earthism is quite extremist, I'm curious if you've reached this conclusion on your own or have been led to it by some sources?

[1] https://cepr.org/voxeu/columns/economic-impact-colonialism

[2] https://economics.mit.edu/sites/default/files/publications/r...

[3] https://monthlyreview.org/articles/the-drain-of-wealth/

[4] https://wid.world/document/unequal-exchange-and-north-south-...

[5] https://ideas.repec.org/p/gnv/wpaper/unige144406.html

atemerev 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

As someone who was born in Russia and lived there in 1990s, I have quite a good idea of this arrangement. This was not mafia state yet. The mafia state is the modern Russia, where former organized crime groups became fully integrated into the government. Technically, the state retains the monopoly on violence. Practically, violence comes from influence of competing groups within the state. And yes, US is moving towards the same regime type. This is clearly visible to me, from my Russian experience, but I don't understand how to convey this to Americans.

rayiner 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

What you’re describing is feudalism, which Russia has never been able to shake. Russia remained stubbornly feudalist while other European countries were developing modern states, and it remains that way. But feudalism, where the government relies on feudal lords to maintain power is distinct from what we’re talking about with organized crime. The argument that the U.S. is heading towards a feudalist state is still wrong, but a much more plausible argument than your original comparison to south africa.

dh2022 a day ago | parent | next [-]

I think Russia is more of a dictatorship than a feudal state.

What you describe as feudalism- a czar/emperor/king/absolute ruler at the top with some people under him to carry on orders - applies to any dictatorship.

Feudalism includes (among other things) complete lack of population movement: serfs were not allowed to leave their villages. In Russia today people can (still) leave the country.

red-iron-pine 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

the US is absolutely moving towards feudalism, and the ones pushing it are big on techno-feudalism a la Yarvin and his adherents -- Peter Thiel and Musk, etc.

atemerev a day ago | parent [-]

This is not feudalism. Feudalism requires people to exploit and land domains to control. "Tech feudalism" requires neither.

throw-the-towel 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Oh please, have you never heard of the "Semibankirshchina"?

pseudohadamard a day ago | parent [-]

Isn't that where Grzegorz Brzęczyszczykiewicz comes from? Semibankirshchina powiat Łękołody?

cucumber3732842 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> Practically, violence comes from influence of competing groups within the state. And yes, US is moving towards the same regime type

The ideological and demographic makeup of certain internet communities makes them incapable of understanding what you mean by this.

rayiner 2 days ago | parent [-]

Yes, most liberal or libertarian white people can’t look at a place like say Egypt and understand why a dictator like El-Sisi is genuinely popular. They don’t have the mental structures to even understand what they’re seeing in a society that’s so different from their own.

watwut 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

He said "mafia state". Italy was/is a non controversial example of that. Firmly in Western Europe.

rayiner 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Was that ever true of Italy as a whole? Or was it like the Yakuza, which exists but doesn’t affect your average person, at least in recent memory.

red-iron-pine 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

the Yakuza isn't running local or national governments

in Italy, there are deep ties to governments, esp. in the south, and they've had their fingers all the way into national leadership before; see also: bunga bunga

jackb4040 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_Due

2 days ago | parent | prev [-]
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ashoeafoot a day ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

iAMkenough 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Americans and Western Europeans have no idea what it means to come from a country where the government can’t maintain a monopoly on violence

I’ve seen enough white Christian men shoot up schools and mosques in my lifetime to roll my eyes at this statement.

Americans are still getting lynched.

decremental 2 days ago | parent [-]

[dead]

diordiderot 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> We need you guys to think about how you overcame those problems so those lessons can be applied to countries that desperately need the help

We have studied this problem ad nauseum. The West knew the answer until about a century ago. Europe became orderly through shame culture, executing criminals and destruction of clan culture.

El Salvador is a modern example.

The remedy is violent, unkind, and not communist so we get indefinite unbounded suffering instead.

nchmy 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

El salvador has a dictator whose dragnet policy has locked up plenty of innocent people in a torture chamber without trial, or seemingly any chance of release. There's also plenty of evidence about there being effectively an alliance with the gangs/cartels that got their leaders to stop activities (and probably get freedom as well)

rayiner 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

> El salvador has a dictator whose dragnet policy has locked up plenty of innocent people in a torture chamber without trial, or seemingly any chance of release

That also describes European monarchs during the period when modern states were forming. So maybe crushing competitors to the state’s monopoly on violence is just a necessary milestone on the path to liberal democracy?

diordiderot 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> trust me bro

2 days ago | parent | prev [-]
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