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philipallstar a day ago

Surely only an absolute lunatic would pass that sort of law. And by then it's too late, because it's Socialism with extra steps.

sebzim4500 a day ago | parent | next [-]

Doesn't Switzerland do this instead of capital gains? Makes sense IMO, much better to tax wealth than discourage transactions.

spacebanana7 a day ago | parent | next [-]

Taxing capital assets by taking large portions of their value destroys value by forcing liquidity events. Think forcing sales of farms, factories and domain names.

I much prefer land value taxes (and similar taxes on non capital wealth like jewellery) and leisure taxes (ideally taxing people for every hour they don't work). Of course these are difficult to administer in practice, but British business rates and US overtime tax discounts effectively approximate this.

bitmasher9 a day ago | parent [-]

The idea of taxing people for not working an hour sounds incredibly dystopian.

overtone1000 a day ago | parent | next [-]

I had the same reaction. It also seems easy to pull apart. What about disabled people who are unable to work?

I think something more like "investment income should be taxed at a higher rate than income earned through labor," accomplishes similar goals but is more intuitive and less problematic.

philipallstar a day ago | parent [-]

If your goal is to reduce investment that creates jobs for labour, then you should do that.

overtone1000 a day ago | parent [-]

This is a false dichotomy. Laborers could just as easily invest in job-creating endeavors as passive income earners. All taxes cause economic drag, not _just_ business and investment income taxes. The economy includes every participant, and laborers are not an externality.

philipallstar 7 hours ago | parent [-]

I'm sorry, I don't follow. Yes, people who are labourers could also somehow creating funding pools that are big enough to start companies, but so what? That doesn't negate the fact that they will be disincentivised to do so by a tax on investment income.

superxpro12 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

What will they think of next? tying healthcare to employment that you lose the moment you get fired to meet quarterly profits? Madness i tell you!

fl4regun a day ago | parent | prev [-]

Not as dystopian as the ability to get wealthier without working and pay no taxes (and even IF you sell to realize gains, your tax liability is still lower than someone who made money through labour)

philipallstar 7 hours ago | parent [-]

Your definition of "wealthier" is stupid, though, because it relies on a measure that doesn't actually apply to the person in question. A share's price is just "the last sale price of the same type of share", and that is multiplied by the person's shareholding to get their "wealth". However they don't have any more money by this happening - it's just a huge assumption that the share price would stay the same across all their shares if they sold right now.

The time we actually know what money they would make, making it concrete for tax, is when they sell. And we already do this.

philipallstar a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Makes sense IMO, much better to tax wealth than discourage transactions.

It's much, much worse to tax wealth.

overtone1000 a day ago | parent [-]

I disagree with you in the other thread, so I want to balance that by saying that I strongly agree with you here.

axus a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If the government forced transfer of ownership %, instead of forcing a sale, it would be not as bad?

philipallstar 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It's identical really. It's just instituting the nationalisation over time of all businesses.

sebzim4500 4 hours ago | parent [-]

In an ideal world, the government would sell some of whatever shares it gets at good times to pay off debt, for example when interest is high just before a tranche of government bonds expire

sebzim4500 a day ago | parent | prev [-]

They could accept either I suppose

tim333 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Apparently not. Googling, no one seems to actually do it in spite of some politicians talking about it.

It seems quite a bad idea from a practical point of view.

Not so much because it's socialist but it leads to all sorts of extra paperwork for no good reason. Like say you buy some utility company share for your retirement in 20 years and it fluctuates. Do you want to be valuing it and paying tax and then claiming it back when it goes down every year for 20 years or just declare the gain at the end?

philipallstar a day ago | parent [-]

Well, it is socialist in that the government basically gets to own more of everything you own every year.

briandw a day ago | parent | prev [-]

Really? How? Show me a country that taxes wealth and is prosperous. Taxing unrealized gains results in owing tax on money you don’t have and makes starting a funded company impossible.

superxpro12 a day ago | parent [-]

and on the other hand we have trillionaires who spend their wealth on fascist party propaganda and censorship

wing-_-nuts a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Why not? We tax property every year on it's assessed value. I think it's pretty clear that the wealthy will need to pay more taxes throughout the world to deal with an aging population.

I'm a little tired of billionaires 'buy, borrow, dying' to get around the paltry taxes they're currently subject to. We need a harder tax to dodge.

carefree-bob a day ago | parent [-]

Why would taxing the wealthy be relevant to an aging population? Do you think that we tax stuff? We just tax money to buy stuff. If a nation produces less stuff, then spending more will just cause prices to go up, but will not result in the production of more stuff to go around.

wing-_-nuts a day ago | parent [-]

Because our current social safety nets all work by assuming the next generation pays for the care of the current elderly. Those elderly do need 'stuff' they need doctors and nurses and nursing homes. Thus taxes will have to go up, and if it has to, it may as well be progressive.

philipallstar 7 hours ago | parent [-]

We already have giant amounts of tax everywhere, all the time. What makes you think we have no money for this?

wing-_-nuts an hour ago | parent [-]

No, actually, we have explicit taxes for SS and Medicare, and we've known they were not bringing in enough revenue to fund those programs since the 80s.

The trust funds are almost dry, so we're either going to have to raise those taxes to fund those programs, or cut a critical safety net to the American public. I know where my vote is going.

IAmBroom a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Oh, no, not Socialism! That's worse than attending a Macklemore concert!

kriops a day ago | parent [-]

Macklemore concerts didn't kill 100 million people at minimum.

nwsm a day ago | parent | next [-]

Do we have an estimate on the number of people capitalism has killed? Serious question.

Include deaths due to poverty and lack of affordable healthcare under capitalism, overworking and dangerous working conditions, and all wars and counter-insurgency waged on alternative economic systems globally.

thesuitonym a day ago | parent | next [-]

No, people who die as a direct result of capitalist economics are not counted because that would be inconvenient and wouldn't fit the CIA's narrative.

carefree-bob a day ago | parent | prev [-]

You'd need a definition of capitalism first. Since for most people, it's just the default mode of living -- e.g. the very term "capital" comes from "head", as in "head of an ox", as early cattle culture practiced capitalism, so it predates the agricultural revolution and was practiced by nomadic groups.

A lot of the language, for example "interest" comes from cattle culture. If you think about it, a cow produces other cows, so it bears interest. You can eat the cow (consume capital) or let the cow produce a stream of milk. Ownership of cows gave you great power.

So asking "the number of people killed by capitalism" is like asking "how many people were killed by everything that's not communism", which is pretty inane, since the point of communism is that it is an ideology, and mass killing for an ideology (that's not religion) is a part of the modern world, not the traditional world of cows and capital. The first ideological genocide was the slaughter of the Vendee peasants by the French revolutionaries, but it was merely the first of many times that urban ideologues slaughtered rural farmers.

wing-_-nuts a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Man I always love the straw men you guys stand up to fight this. More taxes = socialism, and not nordic socialism, no, actually, communism. Therefore mass death / genocide. Ok. Sure jan.

philipallstar a day ago | parent [-]

Nordics are not socialist[0]. Socialism is central planning and control, sometimes created out of mass killings[1] [2], and often creating many deaths just from incompetent central mismanagement[2] [3] or grisly bureacratic rules[4].

[0] https://www.investors.com/politics/commentary/denmark-tells-...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excess_mortality_under_Joseph_...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmer_Rouge

[3] https://historyincharts.com/chinese-death-totals-great-leap-...

[4] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-34667551

ValueTheory a day ago | parent [-]

What does taxing unrealized gains have to do with "central planning and control"?

wing-_-nuts a day ago | parent | next [-]

Nothing, hence my point about it being a straw man :^)

philipallstar 20 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

If you tax unrealised gains, say Elon Musk's SpaceX shares, all that means in practice is the government takes a certain percentage ownership stake in SpaceX every year until he has nothing left to tax, or he sells it to someone else and pays tax on that sum (but who would buy anything if it's going to be taxed away?)

wing-_-nuts 17 hours ago | parent [-]

What a nonsensical argument. Yes, that's why we're all living in government owned housing, because if you tax something, it inevitably gets taken away, and nobody wants to buy houses, cause the government is just gonna take it away...what?

philipallstar 5 hours ago | parent [-]

If your wealth is 100% ownership of Tesla, say, and the government imposes a 5% wealth tax, you have to sell 5% each year of your ownership stake (because the lie of all this is it isn't wealth being taxed, it's ownership) and give it to the government. Until you don't own it any more.

And if you think "well, it doesn't have to go to the government", who else will take it? Who would buy something that they would have to sell 5% of each year? The government, being the only thing that wouldn't be affected by a wealth tax, would become the de facto buyer.

tancop a day ago | parent | prev [-]

Communism is not socialism. What Stalin, Mao and Kim Il-sung did was wrong because they did basically the exact opposite of a socialist policy, centralizing power out of workers hands and taking all surplus value into the central government instead of distributing it.

They all turned into paranoid dictators who did everything they could to stay in power, except for Mao who got lied to by other party leaders and regretted it in his final years. None of them represent what socialism really is. Tankies who worship them are a small minority.

philipallstar 20 hours ago | parent [-]

You've got spot the pattern though, right?

Someone says they're going to make everything equal and they just need enough power to do it. Trouble is, that requires all the power, and a) the halfwits who end up in power are nowhere near as good as the people doing the work and taking the risks at deciding what to do and how to do it and b) the people who want all the power can just say that and the credulous believe them.

superxpro12 a day ago | parent | prev [-]

The fascism we CURRENTLY HAVE is far more preferable