| ▲ | fidotron an hour ago |
| It's actually going to raise questions as to why the EU are A-OK with this now when a possible interpretation of associate membership is it's what Cameron was trying to negotiate the UK into when complete inflexibility on the EU side triggered the Brexit referendum. All depends on what an associate member is of course. |
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| ▲ | georgeecollins a few seconds ago | parent | next [-] |
| Why is the EU obligated to treat every country the same way? Canada presents different economic opportunities and challenges than the UK. Or, if you want to say it was due to politics, who was bashing who? |
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| ▲ | Sharlin an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The UK already enjoyed a large amount of concessions as a full member. The rest of the EU was right not to give in. Also, game theoretically it's of course more important to not make leaving (or threatening to leave) the union seem too lucrative. No such problem in negotiating tighter integration with nonmembers (and in retrospect, many of the old WP countries should've joined as something like associate members at first…) |
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| ▲ | fidotron 40 minutes ago | parent [-] | | This is the other part: if associate membership is a thing then won't half of the EU start thinking that's their future? | | |
| ▲ | johannes1234321 6 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | There is always the debate around "Europe of two speeds" - where there is a deeply integrated core of nations, maybe even going towards "United States of Europe" and the others tightly associated, but not fully integrated. Of course the set of countries and level of integration depends on whom you ask | |
| ▲ | Sharlin 37 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | >> Also, game theoretically it's of course more important to not make leaving (or threatening to leave) the union seem too lucrative. Because you simply wouldn't be offered the option of just deescalating your full membership to an associate membership. If you want to leave, you leave fully, and then in time we can discuss what happens next. Also, obviously an associate membership shouldn't feel more desirable than full integration if you're eligible to both. Indeed from the UK's perspective it would be exactly the opposite to what they wanted: free labor and movement but no representation. | | |
| ▲ | fidotron 35 minutes ago | parent [-] | | This makes being involved as little as possible but no more far more attractive than being bound too tightly together though. Almost like many of the EU states were misled into their current situations. | | |
| ▲ | Sharlin 28 minutes ago | parent [-] | | How so? Many EU states have benefited enormously from being on the receiving side of EU subsidies, which obviously would be out of the question without full integration. Norway, Iceland, and Switzerland have rejected membership, which essentially means that as EEA members they have to observe all the EU regulations and agreements when it comes to trade, without having any say about them. They have their reasons, but those reasons don't apply generally. "Being misled" is obviously nonsense that deserves no further comment. | | |
| ▲ | fidotron 20 minutes ago | parent [-] | | It literally privileges people in countries outside the EU by giving them more rights than those inside. Which many people inside the EU would observe seems completely consistent with EU behaviour. Edit to add: "Being misled" would refer to the way the EU was sold to many participants in earlier decades as an economic union, and not an all encompassing political one, with it simply ratcheting that way. Whenever objections occurred referenda would simply be repeated until the populations complied. It's far from the exercise in democracy that proponents promote. (This is distinct from saying it is _all bad_). | | |
| ▲ | Sharlin 15 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Your position seems so astonishingly alien that I don't even know how to start replying. It seems biased against the entire concept of how human cooperation works. |
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| ▲ | 2 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | teamonkey 43 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I don’t think Cameron did much serious negotiation on this front. He resigned the evening of the referendum results. It was a deliberate choice by his successors to pursue a hard Brexit. A softer Brexit was always possible and likely would have been more acceptable to the EU, as it would have had less financial impact and disruption to trade. |
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| ▲ | fidotron 33 minutes ago | parent [-] | | That's what happened afterwards. The referendum was triggered by a failed negotiation between Cameron and the EU in the first place. |
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| ▲ | corford an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| >inflexibility on the EU side triggered the Brexit referendum. That's a bit of a stretch |
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| ▲ | fidotron 36 minutes ago | parent [-] | | It's literally what happened. Cameron was trying to reduce the scope of EU integration with the UK (esp freedom of movement), with the threat he didn't want to use of a referendum, the EU said no (as the other commenter explained partly to disincentivize others, but also because they thought he was bluffing and people would never vote to leave), so the referendum was held. | | |
| ▲ | thih9 32 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | To be fair, freedom of movement is one of the core principles[1] of the EU. Restricting that is a tall ask, I wouldn't describe refusing that as being inflexible. [1]: https://european-union.europa.eu/principles-countries-histor... "Freedom of movement gives citizens the right to move and reside freely within the Union." | |
| ▲ | gizajob 24 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | I kind of made a point like this in the other thread - during Brexit it was a very hard No from the EU that they couldn’t negotiate on key points such as freedom of movement, and countries are either IN and have everything the EU comes with, or they’re out. Now, it seems, that Canada is being offered a favourable half-in arrangement simply because they’ve never before been involved. Seems pretty bizarre and arbitrary for the EU, but also totally standard for the EU because it’s bizarre and arbitrary. | | |
| ▲ | drdexebtjl 3 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | The crucial distinction is which half is in which “half-in” agreement. They are not offering Canada conditions that the UK would have wanted. | |
| ▲ | foldr 10 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | This potential deal for Canada comes with compromises which would obviously be unacceptable to the UK (e.g. no full voting rights). | | |
| ▲ | fidotron 4 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Does anyone actually know publicly what is and isn't the deal for associate membership? At least here (in Canada) I'm not seeing any concrete details. | |
| ▲ | gizajob 6 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Likely as unacceptable to Canadians. |
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| ▲ | FabCH 28 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I missed the part where the UK was willing to give up all veto and voting rights and still have freedom of movement. Both of which Canada is ok with. |
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| ▲ | fidotron 24 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | I am in Canada. There's no evidence Canada is OK with those things. | |
| ▲ | gizajob 23 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | A majority of Canadians haven’t decided this in an election, and I doubt that 20 million of them would be on board with it. |
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| ▲ | FrancisMoodie 34 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I mean, not really, since the UK was trying to renegotiate an existing deal (which they profited from for decades) towards a deal that would favor the UK more than the EU and would trigger an entire blow-back of other member-states wanting to renegotiate on their EU responsibilities without losing the advantages that this deal brought, whereas the deal with Canada is a new deal where the EU gains better trading and less dependence on the US and Canada gains better trading and more security if their next door neighbor falls apart even further. The UK renegotiation was a net loss for the EU, this Canada deal is a deal where both parties gain something. Also, the Brexit referendum was a campaign promise of David Cameron that was going to trigger if his conservative party won the 2015 general election. Sure, the relationship between EU and UK had strained over the years, but trying to pin this on the inflexibility of the EU feels a bit misdirected. |
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| ▲ | fidotron 30 minutes ago | parent [-] | | > Also, the Brexit referendum was a campaign promise of David Cameron that was going to trigger if his conservative party won the 2015 general election That is iff the renegotiations with Brussels failed, which they did. > The UK renegotiation was a net loss for the EU, this Canada deal is a deal where both parties gain something. V. hard to see what Canada gets out of it. All the roadblocks to Canadian trade with the EU today (especially around resources) are internal to Canada and have nothing at all to do with EU status. |
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| ▲ | blitzar 35 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] |
| The UK wanted to maintain its veto over all EU matters (cake and eat it too). |