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propter_hoc 6 hours ago

My best friend is a highly experienced civil engineer, specialized in designing intersections. His take on roundabouts:

- They are adored by urban planners because they look nice and you can put a statue or fountain in the middle

- They reduce T-bone collisions

However:

- Small fender benders and sideswipes are much more frequent

- They use way more area

- They work where each direction has an approximately equal amount of traffic. However, usually, one direction (north/south, say) has a larger share of the traffic. In those cases, the bulk of traffic all needs to slow down, downshift, turn a bit in one direction and then turn a bit in the other direction for the minority of traffic that's bleeding on or off the main artery. In those cases, a traffic light is better because the timing can be adjusted to the proportion of traffic from each direction (and more flexible since it can be adjusted over time).

- Finally, they're also (mostly) worse for cyclists and pedestrians.

Essentially, they have use cases, especially in small towns, and they're pretty, but they're usually not the right engineering solution.

cjs_ac an hour ago | parent | next [-]

I live in the UK, which has roundabouts, mini roundabouts, double and triple roundabouts, traffic-light controlled roundabouts, and magic roundabouts. They work perfectly fine.

The difference is that traffic flows very differently in the UK to the US. In fact, the way traffic flows in those two countries captures a lot of their cultural differences. In the US, everything needs a grand overarching theory and imposed order, which is why Americans need traffic lights, and why they’re so keen on a very specific set of liberties that allow them to freely live such similar lifestyles. The UK embraces mild chaos and ruthless pragmatism, with everyone finding locally optimal solutions to their own problems, so things like roundabouts fit well with the national mindset.

piker an hour ago | parent [-]

I agree with this, and I'll offer a rationale.

Because the US largely "grew up with cars", the economy was built around the expectation that folks can drive to work. The population density of the US reflects this, and mass transit just doesn't work in small/middle America. That means everyone needs to be able to drive. If you can't drive, you can't work. That isn't the case in the UK, and you'll notice a lot of these "driver beware" analysis is explained by the fact that driving in the UK is seen as a privilege whereas it is a right in the US. This sort of "mild chaos" is prohibitive for a lot of would-be UK drivers, and they just take the bus.

dagurp an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There are more positives. - They keep traffic flowing better so you won't get "platoons" of cars all moving and stopping at the same time. This is especially effective when you do this in a sequence of intersections. - They calm do down traffic by forcing cars to slow down. - You don't need to install and maintain traffic lights.

kazinator 34 minutes ago | parent [-]

Platoons of cars with space in between allow for pedestrians and vehicles to cross the road, downstream.

Nothing worse to have upstream of where you are trying to enter a road, or cross it, than a busy four way stop, with cars coming out of it at regular intervals, without sufficient time/space in between.

pkamb an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> the bulk of traffic all needs to slow down, downshift, turn a bit in one direction and then turn a bit in the other direction for the minority of traffic that's bleeding on or off the main artery.

Slowing/calming traffic like this is a good thing. Make it impossible to speed. Enforce the existing 35mph speed limit via concrete rather than allowing cars to rip through a yellow light at 70mph. You're also ignoring this aspect when you call roundabouts "(mostly) worse for cyclists and pedestrians".

kazinator 32 minutes ago | parent [-]

A place where traffic slows down, without actually stopping, and becomes congested with no time/space gaps between vehicles, is worse for pedestrians.

tokai 12 minutes ago | parent [-]

No it isn't unless all driver all break the law and don't stop for waiting pedestrians.

4 minutes ago | parent [-]
[deleted]
Gravityloss 15 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

In Sweden they have these huge roundabouts in the countryside. Very large diameter and gentle curves. You can maintain your speed. Awesome. Saves energy too. I assume there's a huge amount of tried and tested traffic innovation that could be directly just copied.

rob74 40 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think that's overly negative. Roundabouts have their place, mostly for low traffic intersections, but I agree that they tend to be overused, also here in Europe. Two examples where roundabouts are not the right solution:

- when there is too much traffic: if there is a constant stream of cars in the roundabout so you have to wait for a long time before being able to enter it, or force your way in (risking a fender bender), that's

- when you actually want traffic to flow. My small city has built a bypass road which is however IMHO completely botched: it starts with a roundabout, and the first exit leads to the route going through the center, only the second one goes to the bypass, so people are more likely to drive through the town. And it has three more roundabouts along the route, further making the option unattractive (in addition to a relatively low speed limit of 60 km/h and several tight curves).

kazinator 39 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

As someone who drives manual, and so actually having to downshift myself when necessary, I would rather negotiate a larger roundabout 100% of the time than having to stop at a red light 30% of the time.

On my current gearbox, I can dip to around 30 km/h and gently accelerate while staying in 4th gear, which I'd be in up to around 50 km/h. So if I hit an uncontended larger roundabout that takes me 50-30-50, I don't have to do anything, transmission-wise.

Manual driving culture is probably one reason roundabouts have been popular in Europe long before North America started to warm up to them.

MrSkelter 36 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Roundabouts do not need more space.

You can draw a circle on the road and have “roundabout rules” without the need for any car to even turn their wheels.

kawsper 44 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

As a bicyclist and pedestrian (in Denmark) what is it that’s worse about roundabouts for me? I think they work really well.

emil-lp 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It would be interesting to know your (friend's) country of origin.

piker an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> They work where each direction has an approximately equal amount of traffic. However, usually, one direction (north/south, say) has a larger share of the traffic. In those cases, the bulk of traffic all needs to slow down, downshift, turn a bit in one direction and then turn a bit in the other direction for the minority of traffic that's bleeding on or off the main artery. In those cases, a traffic light is better because the timing can be adjusted to the proportion of traffic from each direction (and more flexible since it can be adjusted over time).

This point is so under-appreciated. Roundabouts are really good in some cases, but they're over-utilized in England. Imagine if the US had roundabouts on the interstate and you're getting close.

VBprogrammer an hour ago | parent [-]

I think the main problem in England is that there is just too much traffic for too little road. I don't think there is a simple infrastructure solution to that problem.

For example I was going to point out that roundabout completely fail when one direction becomes nose to tail congested but when I thought about local examples, I'd rather take that over a set of traffic lights where it becomes near impossible to get out from one direction if the traffic keeps backing up onto the junction.

piker an hour ago | parent [-]

> I think the main problem in England is that there is just too much traffic for too little road.

I think Jevons paradox basically guarantees this in both countries. The difference between the two countries (in my theory) is how much responsibility they're willing to place on the drivers. The UK requires much more driver effort for good reasons I suggest in another thread.

Freedom2 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I live in the US and roundabouts simply don't work.

xethos 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Not much of America's traffic infrastructure works well. Every month, combined with poorly trained motorists, it contributes to another 9/11's worth of fatalities. The infrastructure you think works, kills enough people for a thirteenth month at the end of every year.

They have their downsides, but "It doesn't work in America" is more informative of American motorists than roundabouts

TacticalCoder 42 minutes ago | parent [-]

Yeah I regularly drive in France which has terrible drivers (road deaths way above EU average in France) but it's nowhere near as bad as the US.

The one thing people should ponder is this: Germany has less than 3x the number of road deaths (no matter how you count it: per 100 K people, per kilometer, etc.) than the US. And yet every time I'm in Germany I happily drive at 125 mph on the highway (including when I drive to Poland, where most autobahns near Dresde have no speed limit at all whatsoever). And at 125 mph, I'll get overtaken by some cars going proper fast.

So, what, 65 to 70 mph max speed limit vs unlimited speed and three times the deaths: what's the problem?

Note that I'm certainly not advocating for US (or France for that matter) highways without speed limits: drivers are way too bad.

forgotmypw17 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Thank you so much for putting into words what I have feeling but struggling to verbalize. (Boston area, drive for work.)

There is one more downside, they are easy to get lost in, especially in an unfamiliar area. Apple Maps does an OK job guiding me most of the time, but just yesterday I spent an extra 25 minutes going through the same roundabout 3 times before I went the right direction, and each time I had to drive the wrong way, turn around, and then negotiate the same roundabout again.

sandos 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Roundabouts are perfect when youre confused, just go around and read all the signs 3 times, then select the exit! :)