Remix.run Logo
vova_hn2 5 hours ago

The "Pre-bronze age war between two tribes in West Papua, 1963" video in the article is an embedded tweet. Twitter currently doesn't allow to view it without an account (extensively discussed on HN [0]). Fortunately, it is also available on Youtube [1] (longer version [2]).

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49694296

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNHIP2FJzko

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JI4uirwxx1Y

sethammons 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Watching that battle, my mind went immediately to Dodge Ball. Play that simulates perhaps our most natural type of group fighting.

thaumasiotes 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Our most natural type of group fighting is a bunch of guys raiding a rival settlement while everyone is asleep and killing them in their beds.

Fighting always works better when only your side is doing it.

estearum an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Most intra-species fighting is not designed to end in murder, so this seems like a pretty bold claim. Got any research to back it up?

hermitcrab an hour ago | parent [-]

>Most intra-species fighting is not designed to end in murder

That depends a lot on scarcity. If you are a male and you only get one chance at mating, you will probably fight to the death. If you will get plenty of other chances, then you might accept the results of a ritualised non-lethal combat (e.g. giraffes headbutting each other, rather than kicking). Its just evolution + game theory.

amunozo 37 minutes ago | parent [-]

Is this backed by some anthropological real world examples, or are you just extrapolating theories?

hermitcrab 21 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

I read it in an article that was talking about the application of game theory to biology/evolution and I believe it is well supported by evidence. But I can't remember the source.

hermitcrab 12 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

Der_Einzige 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

You watched Apocalypto recently

olalonde an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I watched a few documentaries about the North Sentinelese and uncontacted Amazonian tribes, and it's terrifying how violent they are compared to modern standards. They kill and ask questions later.

ciconia 2 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

> terrifying how violent they are compared to modern standards.

Oh you mean October 7th Hamas standards or the Israeli Gaza genocide standards, or maybe the US in Vietnam standards?

roncesvalles an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It makes sense because the downside is very high (the stranger wants to kill you) but the upside is not (the stranger has something cool to show you or trade with you). It's not like you'd go to prison for murder either.

For what it's worth, cops in America in certain scenarios act the same way, faced with similar upside/downside risks.

fhdkweig 40 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That's the only reason they are uncontacted. If they welcomed visitors like the native Hawaiians did, they'd be speaking English today.

tuveson 22 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think there's no other way it could be. If you're not violent you get wrecked by modern pathogens and die, or become integrated somewhat into modern society and can no longer be considered "uncontacted".

bspammer 33 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yeah this is selection bias. The remaining uncontacted tribes are uncontacted because they are very hostile to outsiders.

suzzer99 27 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

In the case of the North Sentinelese, this incident in 1880 might have something to do with their hostility to the outside world.

> After several days, six Sentinelese—an elderly couple and four children—were taken to Port Blair. The colonial officer in charge of the operation wrote that the entire group "sickened rapidly, and the old man and his wife died, so the four children were sent back to their home with quantities of presents".

toomuchtodo 8 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The alternative is to be potentially oppressed, subjugated, and colonized. A good example is the British Raj. Being peaceful is fine as long as you're able to use overwhelming force and win against someone who might harm you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Raj

nephihaha an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Some gangs are like that today.

boringg 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

War before mechanized killing. This is probably excatly like the "star wars" for the mayan culture.

consumer451 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Thanks for posting the videos. Two thoughts that came from watching that:

1. It is really interesting that we live on a planet that has such a society, along side one that had built nuclear weapons, and was soon to walk on the moon.

2. Our modern society has not progressed at all from any of these base instincts, and in some cases & applications we have gotten worse.

yorwba 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

They had had a long battle with what looks to be hundreds of participants and there were a few wounded, but nobody died. Compare with e.g. battles in the ancient Mediterranean, where the fighting would have continued until one side panics and tries to flee, and the winning side kills anyone who can't run away fast enough. Now maybe they're simply bad at warfare, but I think a more likely explanation is that they're intentionally not escalating to that level of violence and mostly stay at a standoff distance where fatalities are unlikely. The narrator also calls it a "formal battle" at one point.

In any case, I don't think you can ascribe much of their bow-and-arrow tactics to base instincts.

throwup238 an hour ago | parent | next [-]

I took an anthropology class that focused heavily on the Papua New Guinea highlanders and they fight a ritualized tit-for-tat warfare where they rarely kill and when they do, it’s essentially tribal revenge for the last kill. Almost every male participates and they specifically avoid high intensity warfare because the cost could effectively kill a tribe’s agricultural output.

Note though that even in the Mediterranean, routes where most of the enemy was killed were relatively rare.

hermitcrab an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Sometimes this sort of ritualised combat is a way for young men to show off their bravery without too much chance getting killed. Probably also helps with tribal cohesion. And I assume reduce the chance of full-on, lets kill everyone in the tribe, violence between groups.

Jcampuzano2 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

To be fair, I wish the whole world was much "worse" at warfare in the same way as they are. We'd probably be a much happier world overall. Or at the very least less destructive.

nephihaha an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

"They had had a long battle with what looks to be hundreds of participants and there were a few wounded, but nobody died."

Observe the weapons. Most of them are sharpened sticks and they had a limited supply. Less deadly than swords and no mass manufacturing of weapons either.

The spears would be lucky to penetrate the ribcage. But they could go through the gut or throat, and if they were embedded in a thigh, they could easily cause sepsis.

hermitcrab an hour ago | parent [-]

You can easily kill someone with a fire-hardened pointed stick or a wooden club, if you really want to. I think it is just that they don't want to.

Der_Einzige 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

That's because very primitive humans still have a bicameral mind, i.e. things appear to them as auditory hallucinations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicameral_mentality

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Origin_of_Consciousness_in...

"a bicameral mentality was the "normal and ubiquitous state" of the human mind as recently as 3,000 years ago, at the end of the Bronze Age"

marliechiller an hour ago | parent | next [-]

I'm pretty sure Julian Jaynes' work is entirely hypothetical and is thought if as just an interesting idea rather than actually having any semblance of truth to it... unless you actually believe the Greeks were amongst the first humans to truly emerge with consciousness which seems farfetched to me

post-it an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You read Snow Crash and missed that it was fiction.

vinceguidry an hour ago | parent [-]

When Stephenson wants to deliver a male protagonist to a location, he constructs an elaborate 15-step storyline complete with motivations and character rationale. Female? He just has her kidnapped.

32 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
dmd an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

You are aware that this is the theory of a single crank, and not supported by any modern scientific thought, yes?

bitlad 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

In addition, please check out Sentinelese tribe from the North Sentinel Islands in India [1]. It is more mindblogging than this, in my opinion.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Sentinel_Island

alehlopeh 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Not even close.

21asdffdsa12 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

3. Handing a people that can not progress, exponential tech, without which they regress, but which also kills them all when they regress, is a trapdoor function worthy of St.Fermi .

walrus01 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> we live on a planet that has such a society, along side one that had built nuclear weapons, and was soon to walk on the moon.

“The future is already here – it's just not evenly distributed.”

― William Gibson

crabbone an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I disagree with the (2). The laws of war are and have been evolving, and there's plenty of evidence in recorded history. The first records we have come from Ancient Babylon and they have been modified and amended multiple times since. Another aspect of this development is the existence of international arbitrage with laws that also keep evolving, something that minimizes the need to go to war.

And there's more: the relationship between the state and its army changed a lot. The role, the rights and the duties of individual soldiers changed a lot. Just to give you some examples: the Lieber Code is the one created during the US Civil War -- it's perhaps the first to mention the concept of unlawful orders, exonerating the soldiers who wouldn't follow such orders. Traditionally, St. Maximilianus is described as the first conscientious objector to draft, a concept that, too, went through multiple iterations... And, really, we didn't even scratch the surface mentioning these. Military history is probably the most eventful and rich sub-field of history.

logicchains 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

>Our modern society has not progressed at all from any of these base instincts, and in some cases & applications we have gotten worse.

Not at all surprising given that base instincts come from genetics and genes take tens to hundreds of thousands of years to change significantly.

consumer451 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Agreed. My theory about our "great filter" event is that our technological advancement proceeds so much faster than our genetics, and that will be our ruin.

To put in plain terms, we keep inventing far better "spears" (including kinetic, bio, and chemical) that allow one to kill many, while still behaving like cavemen.

orwin 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

In my opinion,it is more about culture than it is genetics, although I do think genetics are modified by culture in the long term.

consumer451 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Possibly, but look at modern times. It takes years to build social constructs that might guide us towards cooperation and non-violence. Yet, those can be overturned in an instant by a slick turn of phrase that appeals to our base instincts/caveman brain, which i believe we all have.

setopt 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> I do think genetics are modified by culture in the long term.

For example, "self-domestication" by executing or ostracizing individuals that don’t fit into the culture.

orwin 22 minutes ago | parent [-]

You don't really need to go that far. Alimentation changes are enough to force genetic change. Or if you want to go the darwinist/anthropologic way: "https://www.scimex.org/newsfeed/yes-homo-mammals-keep-evolvi..."

podocarp an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

They are only modified if there is some form of selection though, like for example some people say of the Dutch and their height.

In modern times it is more likely that culture and education augments genetics such that your violent tendencies are repressed, you are brought up leading a soft and comfortable life, taught to be polite and kind, etc. Contrast to maybe someone brought up in a warzone or some other place.

I mean post apocalyptic shows like the walking dead express this quite well (at least the first few seasons) where once society falls it's just a free for all and back to our roots again.

orwin 15 minutes ago | parent [-]

Yeah, i'm pretty sure observational studies after natural disasters (those who followed up Katerina especially) showed that it wasn't really the case. Yes, you have looters everywhere (Even in Japan), but most people help their neighbours (or even strangers if those looks non-threatening). Only when you have a central authority figure present and a lot of people you see riot and aggression, hence the reason why in most countries that need help, aid distribution is as decentralized as possible nowadays (centralized distribution is a _really_ good way of having people killed in the mass anyway).

conartist6 an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Is it more or less scary of the filter event was the creation of plate tectonics and the phosphorous cycle?

Balinares 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

You are however under no obligation to grant your instincts unrestricted access to the pilot seat.