| ▲ | kennywinker 6 hours ago |
| Compute has already lost value for me. Six months ago I thought you needed a 1T+ model to be useful coding. Now I am able to get by just fine with a 27b model. I see two factors converging to cause a collapse of this house of cards: 1. People are realizing that what they need isn't more general intelligence, it's more specialization. A small but well tuned coding model, a small but well tuned customer service model, a small but well tuned document explorer. 2. Specialized hardware - TPUs and NPUs - especially coming out of china. The latest GLM model was trained and runs on Huawei hardware. Nvidia is only worth so much because they are the biggest and best provider of the kind of compute needed to run llms, but the export bans mean china has a lot of incentive to topple that monopoly. The amount of compute we need to do the things llms do is falling rapidly, the number of people who can provide that compute is rising. |
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| ▲ | e_y_ 10 minutes ago | parent | next [-] |
| LLMs needing less compute would actually be a good thing for Nvidia due to Jevons paradox. Right now token costs are an impediment to using AI more broadly, and more efficient models would help adoption in cases where AI has proven to be useful, like coding. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox |
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| ▲ | vunderba 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > People are realizing that what they need isn't more general intelligence, it's more specialization. A small but well tuned coding model... It’s not quite as simple as that. Several studies have shown the opposite: models trained on more diverse knowledge tend to cross-pollinate across domains. So a more generalized model can actually perform better than a specialized one. That’s why you’re not seeing tons of tiny models (one for Python, one for Pascal, one for Rust, etc). |
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| ▲ | kennywinker 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | This is definitely the position of the big ai companies. But it doesn't match my experience. Qwen3.8 27b is clearly smarter at coding than MANY bigger models. gpt-oss-120b for example, is almost 4x the size, and performs way worse at coding tasks. It's clear to me that you can build small models that work well at specific tasks. Python vs Rust is probably too fine grained a way to build a model. Coding in general seems like a better target. There will always be a place for large generalist models, no doubt. But I think that place is much smaller than the big ai companies are counting on. | | |
| ▲ | ericd an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Gpt-oss—120b is like 1000 years old in AI years, whereas Qwen 3.8 27b is pretty young. What you’re seeing is that parameters aren’t apples to apples, and at a given parameter level, the new models are much, much better than the ones from a year or two ago. Like, to a comical degree. | | |
| ▲ | MichaelZuo 35 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Wasnt this known by everyone who cared to pay attention? It practically became a joke about how a huge amount of the training data for GPT-4 was bottom of the barrel reddit vomit and obvious bot spam. Leading to many bizarre edge cases. |
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| ▲ | vunderba 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I think we’re in agreement. I make heavy use of smaller local models on a daily basis (Qwen3-VL for auto-captioning images, Gemma3:27b for some translation work, etc.). Gemma3:27b is a good example of a very capable general purpose multimodal model and has handled almost everything I've thrown at it from sentiment analysis to documentation writing. I suppose I was drawing a distinction between specialized and general intelligence versus small and large. I don’t think those are necessarily mutually exclusive. | |
| ▲ | ac29 an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | gpt-oss-120b only has 5B active parameters, so its not surprising Qwen3.8 27B outperforms it (Qwen3.8 is also ~13 months newer, which is forever in LLMs) | | |
| ▲ | kennywinker an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Fair enough. I’ve barley touched oss-120b, so i didn’t know it was so few active params. For a direct comparison, qwen3.6-35b-a3b is still better at coding than oss-120b. And Qwen3.8-27b is still better at coding than opus 4.1. Yes, if you list off models 27b is better than it’s all older models. But that’s my point - newer models are better than older models at the same AND much smaller size. That’s because model size matters less than they say. Training data and model architecture matter more. | |
| ▲ | anon373839 an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | No, it’s not the active parameters. Qwen 3.8 Flash has 6B active and it smokes both models. |
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| ▲ | vmg12 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > more diverse knowledge tend to cross-pollinate across domains Yeah, the cross domain transfer learning from RL is overstated by a lot. | |
| ▲ | lelanthran 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Problem is conflict of interest: the studies are mostly from the providers of the biggest models, or someone who received free tokens to do the research. | | |
| ▲ | phoghed an hour ago | parent [-] | | It would be nice to hear exactly how the conflict of interest has impacted the specific studies and how they are wrong rather than conspiracy theory level speculation and hand waving at the entire category |
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| ▲ | sellmesoap 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I think what will keep the industry afloat, all else failing, is the surveillance industry! Nothing like a fat reoccurring cheque from the government to check if little Jimmy is committing thought crime! |
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| ▲ | pilooch 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| That's unless the code produced in the future is much more complex than today's. |
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| ▲ | zahlman 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Sure, but it would be actively bad to make the code more complex simply because we have machinery that helps us deal with the complexity. A big part of how people assess the models' coding capability is whether they create needless, incidental complexity. | | |
| ▲ | vasco an hour ago | parent [-] | | That's like saying it'd be actively bad to make the code more resource intensive simply because we have machinery that helps us deal with the extra requirements. And as we know as computers got more powerful code didn't get lighter. If it can, it will. |
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| ▲ | kennywinker 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Assuming it’s all going to be vibe coded garbage, yeah it will be much more complex. Like a toddler writing a symphony. |
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| ▲ | pvab3 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I've been thinking about that and that's why Nvidia's prices are surprising to me. Investors should know that better than me so there must be something I don't know |
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| ▲ | detourdog 34 minutes ago | parent [-] | | It’s really hard to know when the large tech companies have so many shares owned by a single figure. They can use margin loans and options to create the appearance of demand. |
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| ▲ | SleightOfHand 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| You're not considering video which OpenAI opted out of when they retired Sora. Generative video requires significantly more computing power and energy than generative text. OpenAI is fucked, compute is still needed, it's just them that isn't. |
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| ▲ | kennywinker 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | OpenAI dropped sora because it was costing them ridiculous amounts of money and earning them very little. They determined that the market can't support the cost of generating video. Without a material change in the market (more buyers, vastly cheaper generation), it's unlikely a different company could make that work. More buyers isn't likely to happen, so that leaves vastly cheaper generation - something that would cause nvidia's value to collapse if it happened. | | |
| ▲ | fc417fc802 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > the market can't support the cost of generating video. I'd suggest that's only the case given the current quality of output. Media is incredibly expensive to produce. A model capable of sufficiently high quality could charge prices that are absurd by today's standards. | | |
| ▲ | gbear605 an hour ago | parent [-] | | It’s a very small set of buyers that are in that price range. Total annual domestic box office revenue is like $10 billion, maybe $50 billion for global TV and film. And that’s revenue, not profit, and a lot of costs are going to marketing, not to filming and casting. That’s a lot of money, but it’s not the scale that OpenAI and Anthropic are at. Video generation would only make sense at that scale if it was targeting individual consumers, but then it’d need to cost something that consumers are willing to pay - which practically is probably a few hundred per year at most among US consumers, and much less globally, so again it doesn’t solve for the size of the AI companies. I don’t see a way that video generation becomes a big industry without making generation much much cheaper. | | |
| ▲ | fc417fc802 29 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Aren't these two largely separate questions? Viability versus if a given incumbent has interest in a market of a given size. With the combination of (at minimum) streaming platforms, the box office, and advertisements video and audio generation would be viable at a remarkably high price point (as compared to the current token prices for other sorts of things). And as the price comes down presumably the market would grow larger - by how much I have no idea but there are certainly a great deal of currently underserved niche markets. |
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| ▲ | chpatrick 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Minimax H3 works pretty great and you can run it on a 3090. | |
| ▲ | usefulcat 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | There would also need to exist sufficient demand for video, which hasn’t happened yet. | |
| ▲ | indigodaddy 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | oAI isn't anywhere near close to fucked as long as their models are head and shoulders above even the very best open models in terms of tool calling and rock solid stability/reliability for agents/coding harnesses. Which, they are right now and we'll see if open models actually catch up in that regard. Even the "best" open models pale in comparison with tool calling and general "prompt and go do something else for an hour" reliability that we have with GPT models. With GPT models, streaming rarely stops unexpectedly. You almost never have to constantly nudge them along, etc. Granted with open models all of this can vary depending on the provider, and perhaps open models/protocols/APIs/harnesses aren't well enough aligned, but OpenAI models just seem to work without constant (or hardly any) wrinkles and with almost any harness/agent. | | |
| ▲ | InsideOutSanta 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | >oAI isn't anywhere near close to fucked as long as their models are head and shoulders above even the very best open models in terms of tool calling and rock solid stability/reliability for agents/coding harnesses That's already not the case today. If you sat me in front of an LLM and told me to figure out if I'm working with K3 or Astra, I could probably do it, but it would take some work to be certain. | | | |
| ▲ | williamse 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] |
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| ▲ | larodi 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| They need the right harness and either your help it auto produces in time enough content to further improve. |
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| ▲ | zer00eyz 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| If you reshuffle your argument, and apply the same facts you get to a similar conclusion but with a drastically different spin. > it's more specialization China, constrained by hardware, and talent (not to slight the Chinese, but they are limited to domestic resources - and much of the US effort is very international). They did, what the Chinese do, and optimized the process of production, and drastically lowered the cost of development of their models. Cheeper to build, cheaper to run is just good economics. Meanwhile in the us, we have open AI doing "experiments" - it looks like the costs around the hugging face hack are going to be about the same as China would spend on building out one of their smaller efforts (several million dollars). (Depending on whos numbers you trust, the fact that I can even make this claim should make you raise an eyebrow). Go back to the 80s' and "expert systems" - most people will tell you that for their time, they were amazing, and useful. People would have loved to have more of them but they were so cost prohibitive that we all but abandoned them for serious use. The US frontier labs seem to have forgotten this lesson and their calls to "slow down" look like an excuse to "cut the waste so we can move to making money". |