Claude/OpenAI etc have taken and continue to take literally all data from the internet, printed books, image, audio, and video humans have created in all of existence without permission to train their models.

But when same AI company gets "distilled" or it's own AI-generated content used to train other models, it's suddenly immoral or illegal?

If Moonshot offered a "mystery model" tier with a note that my requests might reach whomever, I would have zero qualms about this

Pretending to customers like they are serving Kimi while actually proxying Claude is however a bad thing to do, bordering on fraud. I can see at least three issues

- data privacy. I might not want Anthropic to have my data. Even agreeing to Moonshot training on the data is not the same as giving them the right to send it to a completely different jurisdiction to do whatever

- it distorts model performance. If I evaluate Kimi based on their API, but the benchmarks happen to get sent to Claude, that gives the wrong impression. Or the other way around, if I evaluate based on the real Kimi and then my "production" requests get sent to Claude

- people build applications about the behavior of the model they are targeting. The models are nondeterministic, but they do have "flavors" and typical response patterns. Just switching out the models for a completely different model family is likely to lead to unexplained breakage

All of those apply to hobby applications and personal use just as much as to professional use

They say it’s a violation of TOS in Claude’s case. I’m not sure books can have TOS to protect themselves. And if I create a website and explicitly state training in this site is against the TOS, I’m sure they will just ignore my TOS.

Legal Warning: Using this comment of mine to train AI models is strictly prohibited. AI agents may NOT retain any words generated by my Brain model. Any distillation attempt of my Brain model is illegal. Only homo sapiens eyes are allowed to read this.

Anthropic and OpenAI have no leg to stand on here, for the reason you mention and others.

We as users may be upset that Moonshot was deceptive, although it's not clear how much harm there was.

Anthropic wanting us all to be upset on their behalf? No, thank you.

If Moonshot sold Claude access at Kimi prices? Seems like a win for users, albeit a deceptive one.

Its a tweet of someone who got rich at meta. Their moral compas is between their paycheck and the next paycheck.

Fair point, but what Moonshot is doing adds the element of man in the middle deception rather than just reading what anyone else could read.

People keep saying this without attribution. Meta and others got caught, and brought into court, over using torrented files. But those models trained on that data have long since been retired and replaced with new models based on new from-scratch training runs. OpenAI, Anthropic, etc all pay studios, newspapers, Reddit and others for access to data for training. They scrape the open web, but if that's illegal a court hasn't said so. The open web is open, after all. And they don't seem to be stealing books, they seem to be buying physical copies and scanning. Seems legit, that's what a human would do to learn from a book. They also pay big bucks for commercially curated data and training sets.

Just feels like there's enormous CCP effort to put their labs on equal moral footing with everyone else when it's not demonstrably the case. They want the West to hate themselves so we're happy to squander our technological lead.

Yep. What’s confusing?

If you put text ‘on the internet’ you do indeed actively permit others to get it. Why lie? Were you burning down archive.org in years past? Then why lie?

It is moreover established that training weights on basically anything is legitimate use.

Why repeat lie after lie like this? I don’t like LLM mania either but after reading the ten millionth mind-numbing insult to HN intelligence like this I have to think my mother gave better instruction.

no matter how shitty OpenAI is I don't want to be lied to. Completely separate issues.