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boudin 19 hours ago

This article makes it sound like a good thing, but bread made using the Chorleywood process is considered as ultra-processed food and studies shows that it can contribute to IBS. IMO This invention has been bad for the UK, causing real bread to become an expensive, and hard to find in some places, specialty.

bogdan 19 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Brits will pop up like snails in the rain to defend this god awful bread. They'll explain to you for the 15th time that it was a necessity back in the day, or how it's cheaper or faster to make or whatever reason they come up with in the moment. Fellow Brits, we know this, it's ok, it's 2026 the ration times are over. It's time to move on or accept reality.

dofm 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Right, but that is because it essentially was a necessity. Its fortification also aided in the developmental health of generations of children. Snark about it all you like; it was valuable.

People in fact don't eat dull white sliced bread in anything like the quantity they did. The majority of bread sold might be like that but we just eat less bread full stop.

But first, when you say "this godawful bread", what exactly do you mean? Chorleywood is a process, not an outcome. It's not just the template pre-sliced white/wholemeal/brown loaf thing from the three big brands. Quite a lot of bread you might think is not Chorleywood essentially is.

Go to even a larger French supermarket and buy a baguette, and that will very likely be a Chorleywood-based process. Much in-store-bakery bread is a modified Chorleywood process (if it is not, it is another similarly "ultra-processed" method, apparently called Activated Dough Development).

Most supermarket "sourdough type" bread, even some quite expensive stuff, is a modified Chorleywood process. Most ciabatta are.

I don't really eat "cut loaf" bread anymore for quite immediate health reasons — it invariably causes acid reflux and then skin irritation, so I gave it up a long time back. But I do still eat the odd part-baked bread roll and even some of those are Chorleywood process.

There is a good chance that if you're in a posh café you're still eating a Chorleywood-type bread. Because it is a way of making bread at scale; it is not a single product outcome.

gjm11 2 hours ago | parent [-]

> Most supermarket "sourdough type" bread, even some quite expensive stuff, is a modified Chorleywood process. Most ciabatta are.

I assume this is one reason why most supermarket "sourdough type" bread is, well, not good. (Sure, it's better than the cheapo sliced-white stuff. There's a lot of space between that and actually-good.)

I don't claim to know for sure that no bread made with Chorleywood-type processes is good. I am fairly sure, though, that no bread I've had that I have good reason to suspect was made that way has ever been much good.

(One specific complaint: It tends to have crumb that lacks elasticity. If you try to spread anything fairly thick on it -- soft cheese, say -- it tears and crumbles.If I do the same thing with one of my own loaves, the crumb flexes but doesn't tear or disintegrate. This isn't the only thing I find unsatisfactory about even supposedly fancy supermarket bread, but it's a thing I can describe fairly explicitly rather than just waving my hands and saying "well, it's just not good, you know?".)

dofm 2 hours ago | parent [-]

> I don't claim to know for sure that no bread made with Chorleywood-type processes is good. I am fairly sure, though, that no bread I've had that I have good reason to suspect was made that way has ever been much good.

I want to say that I also find Chorleywood bread to be "noticeable" somehow, because it feels like it always is compared to my local artisan place, but I have realised this evening while reading about the other common accelerated process used here — ADD — on this impressive page:

https://domson.co.uk/gb/academy/bread-technology/dough-mixin...

… that it might be difficult to tell these two processes apart from each other meaningfully by taste. Whereas the difference from non-industrialised, slow-fermented bread is usually pretty obvious.

(FWIW I do still eat the supermarket sourdoughs along with part-baked things, because the artisan place is less convenient — though it has just started to offer a terrifyingly convenient delivery service -- but mainly I am doing this to slow down my bread consumption even further; ultimately I feel healthier if I eat less bread.)

noelwelsh 18 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's slightly depressing how much better the everyday food is just some 300kms east of London (i.e. in France). I was shocked the first time I pitched up in a random Carrefour and saw that their basic food is an essentially unobtainable level of quality in the UK.

British food has come a long way over time, though there is still that subculture the rejoices in shite, or "proper" as they call it, food.

At least we can feel superior to the US on this front, who produce the worst bread I've ever eaten.

ddellacosta 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

USian here, guilty as charged. Although I imagine it's the same as in the U.K. in terms of a lot of people who eat a lot of crap, while there are still plenty of people who know and appreciate good food, including baked goods. So, there is good bread here, but either you make it yourself or pay a premium.

dofm 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

French supermarket baguettes are very often Chorleywood.

ndsipa_pomu 17 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> It's slightly depressing how much better the everyday food is just some 300kms east of London (i.e. in France)

Do you mean south of London?

noelwelsh 17 hours ago | parent [-]

Would south east do? Is further pedantry necessary?

SECProto 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I'd note that south or southeast would work, even southwest might. But East would clearly lead to the Netherlands. (they may also eat better bread there too, I wouldn't know)

ndsipa_pomu 15 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I'll accept south-east.

I'm glad we're not describing the relationship between Greenland and Iceland as Greenland is farther east, west, north and south of Iceland.

Angostura 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I’m not sure that’s true. I’m old enough to remember the great British bread strike of 1977 https://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/11045641.look-back-chaos-c...

One of the effects of the strike was that white sliced was in short supply and mangled people ended up with weird granary loaves etc as they were all that was left in the shelves. They liked them.

And from that day granary and seeded breads became a lot more popular over the bland spongy white sliced stuff.

I will say that whatever the failings of white sliced, I still prefer it to over-sweetened US bread.

d1ss0nanz 18 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

"separate taps for cold and hot water" (even in public places)

micv 7 hours ago | parent [-]

I don't really understand this either. Mixer taps are just better, but I have separate taps in my bath tub despite the block of houses being built in the 2010s. Guess some people like the aesthetic.

funnybeam 7 hours ago | parent [-]

Probably not in your bath, but in houses with water tanks at least one of the cold taps will be fed directly from the mains supply. If you are drinking it then you want it straight from the mains rather than from the tank in your loft that’s been sat there for a while and had all sorts of things falling into it

userbinator 5 hours ago | parent [-]

but in houses with water tanks

This is another big surprise to Americans, which went from no running water to high-pressure mains.

Nursie 18 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The reality is that the process is used all round the world these days (as covered in the article), not just in Britain, and its done that by being fast and cheap. It's also doubtful that it's any worse for you than American supermarket breads which are pumped full of sugar, emulsified oils etc etc.

Frankly all the pre-processed, plastic-wrapped supermarket loaves can get in the bin as far as I'm concerned, I buy sourdough from the local farmers market. But that's significantly more expensive and I recognise it's a position of privilege.

18 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
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moogly 18 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Harsh but true. It's the same phenomenon as defending the BS 1363 power plug that needed an embedded fuse because their domestic postwar electrical wiring was Not Great -- to save on copper.

But we all do this with our own stanky poop.

eru 18 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The plug ain't too bad actually. (And I grew up with European style plugs.)

Still a vastly better mechanical design than what they make you use in the US: they barely hold in the socket.

notahacker 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Yeah BS 1363 is a really weird British standard to pick on, especially in a discussion about our food standards! Well engineered to actually stay in the socket, sockets have safety shutters as well as the earthing which other standards bizarrely lived without and it's not easily confused with a myriad of similar but incompatible standards. The fuse is a non-issue in practical use, and handy if your circuit is high current and your power cord isn't.

People who prefer plugs that are fun to step on are doing electrical interfaces wrong!

exmadscientist 4 hours ago | parent [-]

They're all horrid to step on, so that's not really worth discussing.

The US plug (NEMA 1-15P is the 2-prong version, or 5-15P for the most common 3-prong grounded) is actually pretty decent. They stay in sockets pretty well if the sockets aren't bottom-of-the-barrel garbage products which, sadly, many things in the US are in general.

What many people miss when comparing US and EU plugs are that they're actually doing fairly different jobs. The 120V mains in the US is significantly less trouble than the 240V in Europe, so you can get away with a lot less mechanically on the plug. The US NEMA 6-15P plug design (the 240V version of the standard plug) is, accordingly, kind of shit. But at least it's rare enough that receptacles tend to be of decent quality, which mitigates a lot. The locking versions (L5-15R etc) are actually quite good, and should almost always be used when possible and appropriate. They're good to 480V and even a bit beyond -- not just working but actually good -- and you can't say that about most EU plug designs. You guys have those horribly bulky pin-and-sleeve disasters and we get nice NEMA locking plugs for our three-phase.

One of the other things that European plugs have to deal with, and US plugs don't, is that European electricians have no idea how to separate hot and neutral wires and basically wire them up randomly. This has major consequences in a lot of product design and is really really annoying when you're trying to build something safe. (Namely: in the US you're often (but not always) not allowed to fuse neutral wires. That makes sense, for safety reasons. You have to fuse hot... but in Europe you don't know which one is hot, so you have to fuse them both. Which means you just fused neutral. Design conflict!) That shows up in the plugs, too; with no idea where hot is, you have to be more careful and can't use neutral to help you out.

gjm11 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

British plugs are worse to step on, not because the pins are any worse to have jammed into your foot but because the design of the plugs means that if you leave one unplugged on the floor there's an excellent chance that it ends up in caltrop configuration with the pins pointing upward, whereas a US-style plug is (I think) more likely to end up with the pins pointing sideways where they're less likely to hurt your foot when you step on the plug.

But in all other respects the British mains plug design is really rather good. It does a good job of making partially-plugged-in plugs still safe, it's nice and robust, it readily stays firmly plugged in, etc.; US plugs are much worse in these respects and I think so are typical continental European ones.

notahacker 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

BS 1363 isn't an EU plug though. Doesn't have issues with separation of hot and neutral wires (and does have a fuse for the hot wire built in) and nor is it specified with the idea that electrocution risk is no biggie or that not falling out of walls (a big issue with some Euro plug and socket combinations too) is up to the manufacturer. And having one type of plug for all regular home appliances in the UK and a different one for three phase feels like a more sensible split than the range of 2 and 3 pin options of varying quality and compatibility that CEE7 and NEMA present.

exmadscientist 11 minutes ago | parent [-]

Fair point on BS 1363 not being EU, and about UK electricians not being incompetent (I actually didn't know they were careful unlike the continent -- that's just one of those things that once you have to deal with the insanity that is continental Europe, it doesn't really much matter what else is out there).

But my point about electrocution risk is that 240V is not twice as dangerous as 120V. It's actually much, much worse. And 480V is worse still. We used to say that screwing up 120V will hurt you, 240V will kill you, and 480V will kill you, start your corpse on fire, and blind everyone around you. So the design requirements for all 240V class plugs are much more important.

> not falling out of walls ... is up to the manufacturer

This one is a real problem in the US because there is a standard, it is a good standard, parts are made and tested to the standard, and standards-compliant parts work very well. But few people require the damn standard. If you want good receptacles in the US, get stuff that's marked "Federal Specification W-C-596 rated" (aka "Fed Spec"; "Spec Grade" is self-certified to... something... which is... not the same thing... but in practice the manufacturers seem not to abuse that term too much; often lower-volume part numbers seem only to be available as "Spec Grade" presumably due to testing cost). It will perform well.

hnlmorg 18 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

As a Brit I will tell you that not all of us like this processed shit that passes for bread.

However the plug is actually a really good piece of engineering. There’s so many subtle design features to it that can be genuinely life saving. The only drawback is the often cited problem of stepping on one, to which I say “you shouldn’t be leaving plugs on the floor anyway. And it’s still better that than having kids electrocute themselves or your house burning”

chihuahua 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The peak of British engineering was in the 1990s when I briefly lived there, and you could not buy small appliances with a plug attached. You got the bare wire, and you had to buy a separate plug, and connect it yourself at home.

Of course, any rational British person would instantly understand that the best way to ensure safety is to have every single person wiring up every single plug in their house.

cineticdaffodil 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
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bryanlarsen 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

AFAICT the two processing steps that have the most impact are the super fine milling that is used to create modern flour, and the removal of the bran from the flour. Those are likely the same whether you have Chorleywood bread or homemade 4 ingredient bread.

I suspect that Chorleywood bread made with stone ground whole wheat flour is better for you than home made four ingredient white bread. (with the caveat that Chorleywood probably doesn't work with such flour).

anonzzzies 18 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I cannot really think of worse bread than pret or that first picture garbage. It's just so horrible compared what I bake at home, but sure, you can keep it for 40 years and it'll still be the same. Apparently people value that over their colon health.

mweibel 18 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

yes, long fermentation reduces fodmaps in breads which in turn makes it better digestable (plus it just takes better).

throw-qqqqq 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

This is true, but I want to add that FODMAPs are not inherently bad for you (unless you have something like IBS), on the contrary!

Fermentable carbohydrates are prebiotics and feed your gut flora, which produces short-chain fatty acids that are healthy for you.

But yes, you also get gas from FODMAPs. And no, I am not advocating for processed foods - just wanted to comment on the FODMAP aspect.

cineticdaffodil 18 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

18 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
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Nursie 18 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> This article makes it sound like a good thing

At the time, it was, it allowed the country to feed itself on (largely) its own wheat. They didn't know it could contribute to IBS, they did know there was national food security at stake. Beyond that it made cheaper, mass-produced bread more viable in a bunch of places. Historically, globally it's hard to see cheaper staple food as an entirely bad thing. Now we know the consequences perhaps it's time to rethink.

> causing real bread to become an expensive, and hard to find in some places, specialty.

How do you think it has it caused real bread to become expensive? Is it not more likely that real bread is more expensive to produce and therefore people buy the cheap shit?

boudin 18 hours ago | parent [-]

> At the time, it was, it allowed the country to feed itself on (largely) its own wheat. They didn't know it could contribute to IBS, they did know there was national food security at stake. Beyond that it made cheaper, mass-produced bread more viable in a bunch of places. Historically, globally it's hard to see cheaper staple food as an entirely bad thing.

That's just not true. It allowed to industrials using british wheat to compete against industrials using canadian wheat. Another approach could have been to protect artisan baker instead of going all in with the industrialisation of food production.

> How do you think it has it caused real bread to become expensive? Is it not more likely that real bread is more expensive to produce and therefore people buy the cheap shit?

Because bakery are seen as a specialty, and do not sell high volumes. You just have to cross the channel to see that real bread doesn't need to be that expensive and small bakers can compete with industrials.

rjsw 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Supermarket bread in France is also industrial.

analog31 4 hours ago | parent [-]

I wonder about bakeries too. When traveling in France and elsewhere in Europe, the uniformity of bakery bread has suggested to me that a lot of it is made from a mix.

Nursie 18 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> That's just not true.

It's right there in the article, in the postwar years the UK was reliant on imported Canadian and other wheats, the process allowed the UK to use its own wheat. "Artisan" bread was not a thing in the early 1960s, AFAICT at that point in time Britain had an extremely impoverished food sector.

> Because bakery are seen as a specialty, and do not sell high volumes. You just have to cross the channel to see that real bread doesn't need to be that expensive

France seems to be a bit of an outlier here AFAICT. But is 'real' bread even that expensive in the UK?

Look, you can get a 24hr sourdough loaf at Tesco for 2 quid - https://www.tesco.com/shop/en-GB/products/272914228 - or 3.75 for the 800g version. And you can tell it's not chorleywood because there's no Ascorbic acid or added oils. Real bread is available at any given supermarket if you want it.

If your real complaint is "Why don't we have France's bakery culture?" well I think that goes a lot deeper.