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engeljohnb 3 hours ago

I know this is just an example, but I'm going to say this every time the subject comes up: since human lives are the cost of making the wrong decisions, AI can't be allowed to be a decision maker of any kind in healthcare.

If my blood pressure crashes because my nurse is caring for 15 patients at once and didn't notice that the AI decided to pause my norepinephrine, I won't consider "the AI did it" to be any acceptable excuse.

tengbretson 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> AI can't be allowed to be a decision maker of any kind in healthcare.

It will, except it will be snuck in through the back door. It won't be some kind of robo-doctor making care decisions, it will come in the form of insurance eligibility steering the approved care plans, which absolutely will be decided by AI. The doctors will remain to act as liability sinks, but functionally they will probably join the ranks of the meat proxies.

trhway 13 minutes ago | parent [-]

I see that already in veterinary medicine with the non-DVM office/practice managers (or whatever title that guy lurking around in the office may have) - in the vet practices belonging to large networks the DVMs and nurses constantly looking at those managers for approval.

RigelKentaurus 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Not to say that I don't agree with you to an extent, but you should see AI-delivered healthcare numbers to human-delivered and make it a fair comparison.

From Google:

"Annual Deaths: Over 250,000 people die each year in the U.S. due to medical errors made by healthcare professionals, including doctors and nurses. Ranking: This figure positions medical errors as the third leading cause of death in the United States, following heart disease and cancer."

It is highly possible that in a few years, AI will be a lot safer in the majority of healthcare situations.

ryandrake 2 hours ago | parent [-]

The difference is that humans are at least supposed to be accountable for those 250,000 errors. Those humans can naturally care about doing a good job, or they can be motivated to care. They can fear consequences and take pride in avoiding mistakes.

AI can do none of this, and cannot be held accountable for mistakes.

I would take a human with a 10% mistake rate but who can be held accountable, over an AI with a 0.1% mistake rate that is totally unaccountable for its mistakes.

jurgenburgen 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> I would take a human with a 10% mistake rate but who can be held accountable, over an AI with a 0.1% mistake rate that is totally unaccountable for its mistakes.

You would take those odds? 100x more deaths?

I agree that AI _companies_ should be accountable for the software they produce but I’m not convinced you would go for a 90% chance of survival if you can choose 99.9%.

ryandrake an hour ago | parent [-]

I guess if you're dead, then it ultimately doesn't matter if someone can be held accountable, although it might matter to your next-of-kin.

But, yea, in general, it would take a huge (1000X or 10,000X) difference in expected outcome for me to trust something that is unaccountable. If the AI company was actually held accountable for its AI's mistakes, I'd definitely change my statement.

woah 34 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

Human doctors and nurses are not accountable for outcomes, and they can not be accountable or our medical system (and any other medical system) would cease to function.

panarky 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> human lives are the cost of making the wrong decisions ...

True.

> ... AI can't be allowed to be a decision maker

Non sequitur.

Part 2 only follows from the Part 1 if you can demonstrate that AI makes more errors, or more severe errors, than humans in the identical situation.

And for those situations, I agree with you.

But there are already many situations where the AI is making fewer errors than humans, and for those situations, it would be unethical to exclude AI (see Part 1).

engeljohnb 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Since AI can't be held liable for mistakes, it's immaterial whether the AI makes fewer mistakes than humans.

RigelKentaurus an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Not true. The company deploying or using the AI (not the frontier AI lab building it) needs to make sure that the AI works. Just like anything else. Not sure why this is complicated.

GlacierFox 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

This isn't going to compute with the AI evangelists on here.

PaulDavisThe1st 11 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Excuse for who? The nurse? The hospital administration? The hospital owners? The insurance company?

pjmorris 38 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

"A computer can never be held accountable; therefore, a computer must never make a management decision." - IBM, 1979

I'd say society's, or maybe executive's, viewpoint has shifted on this.

marssaxman 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Why wouldn't they just blame the nurse anyway? The law always puts somebody on the hook. The nurse's job will be to do what the AI says and take the blame when it fails.

0xdeadbeefbabe 2 hours ago | parent [-]

At least there will be more nurses to take the blame.

luka2233 32 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There was quite a long debate about "Hallucination Defense" here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46815527

sdevonoes an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> “the AI did it" to be any acceptable excuse.

It will be depending on how much you paid. My bet is that in the near future normal people (like most of us) will be attended by AI in pretty much everywhere: the bank, the hospital, shops, hotels, etc.

You will need to pay extra premium to be attended by a human being. Actually that’s what’s been happening to the ultra rich since a very long time ago (e.g. a millionaire doesn’t book an appointment by using their phones, they ask their assistant to book for them; they don’t go online shopping, they get people do the shopping for them, etc)

zahlman 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I want to emphasize your point. As a basic matter of valuing humanity qua humanity, this holds even if the AI could be shown to make the decisions more accurately than a human could.

In fact, especially in those circumstances, if we take the warnings of X-risk even slightly seriously.