| ▲ | somenameforme a day ago |
| IQ scores in most of the Western world began reversing sometime from the 90s to early 00s. [1] That link is for the US but similar stuff has also been observed in most of every Western/OECD nation. By contrast they're still rapidly increasing in the 'Global South'. You'd expect this to manifest in reduced test scores and reduced quality of outcomes across a breadth of fields over time paired with the inverse happening in countries seeing gains. And that does not seem inaccurate. Why this is, is an interesting question but it hits on too many taboo topics. Though perhaps rational discussion becoming taboo is itself a part of the reason. When you accept reality, whatever it gives you, you're obviously going to have a far more rational population and better outcomes than one that insists on bending reality to fit a desired narrative, even when it obviously does not. After all this is precisely what brought Greater Arabia from the center of education and learning in the world to rather the opposite. It wasn't religion, but letting ideology dominate reality instead of the other way around. [1] - https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/a43469569/american-... |
|
| ▲ | JeremyNT a day ago | parent | next [-] |
| > Why this is, is an interesting question but it hits on too many taboo topics. What are those "taboo topics?" Can you state this plainly rather than obliquely? |
| |
|
| ▲ | zackmorris a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| When you accept reality, whatever it gives you, you're obviously going to have a far more rational population and better outcomes than one that insists on bending reality to fit a desired narrative, even when it obviously does not. Uh, this is Hacker News, we literally reject others's realities and substitute our own. When it comes to gains, you're probably thinking of average outcomes (which don't reflect wealth inequality) instead of median outcomes. In no universe does ignorance benefit one's financial situation, unless we're talking about looking the other way when it comes to exploitation. In which case, yes, ignorance helps the wealthy tremendously. |
|
| ▲ | Daishiman a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Why this is, is an interesting question but it hits on too many taboo topics. Though perhaps rational discussion becoming taboo is itself a part of the reason. I'm sure you fail to see the contradiction in claiming that "rational discussion" is a taboo while clearly not stating your hypothesis. In the same vein, your hypothesis obviates the fact that "rational discussion" in topics of interpreting social studies requires building out on a ton of assumptions that are weakly held and the reason why the social scientists abstain from giving clear-cut answers is because the topic has too much depth and nuance to make strong statements with confidence. |
|
| ▲ | delis-thumbs-7e a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| See how in your own link one of the authors says indeed how the decline in results is because we have gone too woke: Dworak, a research assistant professor at Northwestern University and one of the authors on the study, is very clear that these results don’t necessarily mean Americans are getting less intelligent. “It doesn’t mean their mental ability is lower or higher; it’s just a difference in scores that are favoring older or newer samples,” she said in a press release. “It could just be that they’re getting worse at taking tests or specifically worse at taking these kinds of tests.”
And, it should be said, there has long been debate over how accurately IQ tests are able to gauge overall intelligence and potential for success in society in the first place.No wait, they say nothing of the kind. And it seems people are getting better at 3D-thinking and decline is not the same in every topic measured so… Man, your referencecreally does not support the narrative to which you are trying to bend the reality. |
| |
| ▲ | somenameforme 12 hours ago | parent [-] | | You're reading into things as you want to read into them. I am saying that the rejection of reality, which includes but is certainly not limited to 'woke', is the problem. IQ is full of examples in this domain because it tends to provide measurable data that regularly contradicts ideological views. I think the author's own response is a perfect example. She finds that people are scoring significantly worse on most measurable aspects of IQ and so she concludes that they may simply be getting worse at taking tests? Let's imagine in a parallel world (or China...) she did the same study and found that scores were increasing. Would she have suggested it may simply be because people are getting better at taking tests? Almost certainly not, because it's a highly improbable explanation with no foundational basis whatsoever. If you don't think the tests you're using to evaluate something are evaluating that thing, then why would you use those tests? So why would she make the claim in one scenario, but not the other? Because of ideology. We obviously want IQs to be going up, and so the ideological value is given at least equal weighting, if not more, against the significantly more probable 'natural' explanation when the 'natural' explanation goes against ideological desires. |
|
|
| ▲ | karmakurtisaani a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I get the feeling you want to blame "woke" ideologies for this decline. Please correct me if I'm wrong. In my opinion we just have it too easy nowadays. Too much entertainment, screens and not enough challenges to keep kids thinking they need to be as sharp as they can be. |
| |
| ▲ | wongarsu a day ago | parent | next [-] | | The "Fox News" right is just as guilty of letting ideology override reason as the "woke" left. As are many other groups (most of Western politics is a bit more complicated than the US's left/right split) | | |
| ▲ | qmmmur 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | As far as I can see most left wing political platforms at least have a plan to fund education unlike right wing parties which constantly seek austerity measures and general defunding of humanities and education. |
| |
| ▲ | gfrecvh 19 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I think you nailed it with "too much entertainment", it's a shame your comment comes bundled with other stuff that's getting it downvoted. | | |
| ▲ | karmakurtisaani 11 hours ago | parent [-] | | Well the OP was being vague and I wanted to clarify what they meant. Blaming woke is one of my pet peeves, since it's one of the most intellectually lazy things you can do. |
|
|
|
| ▲ | a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| [deleted] |
|
| ▲ | watwut a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| IQ is literally designed to always average at 100. And tests are calibrated to always give that result. So, not so much taboo as "a bullshit". |
|
| ▲ | DataDaoDe a day ago | parent | prev [-] |
| > IQ scores in most of the Western world began reversing sometime from the 90s to early 00s. [1] That link is for the US but similar stuff has also been observed in most of every Western/OECD nation. I wonder to what extent demographic shifts account for the observed reversal? It would be interesting to tease out what happens where composition remains constant, i.e. Poland. Though I doubt this explains the entire effect. > By contrast they're still rapidly increasing in the 'Global South'. seems like the Flynn effect doing its thing just as it did in western countries in the 20th century. |
| |
| ▲ | tptacek a day ago | parent [-] | | In what manner are you suggesting demography would be at issue here? | | |
| ▲ | adrianN a day ago | parent [-] | | Intelligence is probably at least partially inheritable. If intelligent people have fewer children you expect intelligence to go down eventually. | | |
| ▲ | tptacek a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Just because smart people tend to have fewer children (because, for instance, they delay it due to schooling and career demands) doesn't mean genes for intelligence are necessarily being selected against. | | |
| ▲ | gfrecvh 19 hours ago | parent [-] | | I dont understand what this phrase means. In the context of evolution, if something causes fewer copies of a gene, that's what selected against means. | | |
| ▲ | tptacek 19 hours ago | parent [-] | | There's several reasons why this might not be the case, including that our premise is simple heritability and not genetic determinism, which is a different concept. I get where you're coming from now though. |
|
| |
| ▲ | kenjackson a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Not that quickly though. | | |
| ▲ | somenameforme 13 hours ago | parent [-] | | People beat around the bush but the heritability of IQ is extremely high, modern studies put it around 80%. So if one group has an IQ of 140 and another of 100, it'd imply about 32 of those 40 points are generally able to be explained by genetic factors. For some contrast that tends to be around, or a bit above, the estimated heritability for height. And so you'd see that easily in a single generation. It'd be akin to if tall people (or short people) began removing themselves from the gene pool in significant quantities. You'd immediately (well at least once people reached their adult height) see a significant increase or decrease in average heights. | | |
| ▲ | tptacek 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | This isn't true; 80s and 90s-vintage twin studies put it around 80%, but those numbers have been slashed; even hereditarians don't stand by them anymore. Molecular genetics results (contested by hereditarians, in fairness) situate it closer to 15-30%. David Bessis has a good piece about this. And that's before you get to the slippery definition of what "heritability" means. It does allow you to use the words "explained by genetic factors", but in a very specific way, one in which the number of hands you have isn't similarly explainable, but how much TV you watch is. | | |
| ▲ | somenameforme 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | That's quite a meaningless statement. Molecular genetics is in its infancy and so you're appealing to absence lack of evidence, which exists for most of everything, as evidence of absence - quite nihilistic! A quick search similarly suggests rates as low as 10% for the heritability of (non-European) height based on molecular genetics, undoubtedly for the same reasons. And we've already had this conversation and in spite of your obsession with bias confirming 'blogs written by very smart people' - the heritability of TV watching is zero. Actually lol looking this up, it turns out there has indeed been a study done on this [1], as part of a study on the heritability of sedentary behaviors in general. And yeah, it's zero. You are right that the number of hands you have is not heritable, but is only because heritability is defined as the percent of variation in a trait, between populations, that can be explained by genetic factors. When basically everybody has two hands, there is no variation, so there is no heritability to measure. It'd be like discussing the heritability of hair color if everybody had black hair. It's not some sort of clever insight or retort, though I'm certain your blogs framed it as the wittiest thing ever. [1] - https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4193845 | | |
| ▲ | tptacek 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | This comment doesn't actually say anything. I get that you're unhappy with the comment that I wrote? But that's all I get from it. The one specific claim you make here, that height has heritabilities measured at around 10%, is false. In fact, the comparisons between the steadfastly high heritabilities of simple physical phenotypical traits like height and complex behavioral characteristics is a big part of the current scientific conversation about behavioral genetics. |
|
| |
| ▲ | kenjackson 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | But you’re seeing huge effects in three years, not a generation. The report notes “The change in mean scores that can be explained merely by the changing composition of the student body, however, never exceeds a few points.” So for Portugal for example about 10% of the drop might be attributable to immigration. But the other 90% to something else. |
|
|
|
|
|