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godwinson__4-8 5 hours ago

A good historical nugget is that the Americans got a huge leg up in the space race by importing the Germans who worked on the V-2 program.

Germans killed Soviets by the millions. If you were a German of value (like a rocket scientist) you were eager to surrender to the Americans before the Soviets could get their hands on you.

If you were the Americans, you distrusted the Soviets already, so it was a win-win.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip

Danox 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

They got a leg up and still the Russians with Sputnik got into space first, on top of splitting Korea and winning in Vietnam and having the nuclear bomb fall into their lap and to top it off they appear to have the Manchurian candidate in the White House.

erkt 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Take a deep breath.

xyzsparetimexyz 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Sorry you had to import nazis to get into orbit :shrug:

iJohnDoe 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

If you can't see those points, you need to take several deep breaths.

bpodgursky 43 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The Russians conscripted more German rocket scientists than the Americans got through Operation Paperclip, both programs were bootstrapped with German expertise. Americans got ~1,600, Russians more like 6,000.

4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
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bigyabai 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

With fairness to the Soviets, the USSR's reputation for rocket artillery was nearly as impressive as Germany's in WWII. The Allies had less experience scaling and deploying the technology, so they had more to gain by taking in the Peenemünde researchers.

jgtrosh 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This went both ways https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Osoaviakhim

godwinson__4-8 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Yes a good thing to point out, however the American initiative was more successful, was it not?

Largely because raw numbers aside, most of the top talent wanted to avoid the Soviets and thus the US was the only logical option. That is, part of what made the American job on this easier is top German talent anticipated some "Operation Osoaviakhim" (or worse) scenario and thus sought out the US as the only way to get out ahead of it.

von Braun made major contributions to NASA. My understanding is relatively speaking, the Soviets got the scraps. Not that it made no impact, but just to say the impact of the Germans on the American space program should not be understated, and I don't think it would be accurate to assess the fruits of these two competing operations as equivalent.

von Braun and others had a major hand in the Saturn V. Who did the Soviets manage to seize of equal caliber?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wernher_von_Braun

generuso an hour ago | parent | next [-]

USA got the cream of the crop of the managers of the German missile program, while the USSR got the workers, who actually did the work with their hands and built the parts for the rockets. (One exception was Helmut Gröttrup, the head of the V-2’s guidance and telemetry systems.)

In fact, after the war the USSR has briefly reconstituted the manufacturing of V-2 in Germany, employing thousands of people, before transplanting this entire industry to the USSR. This dramatically lifted the level of Soviet manufacturing and relevant metallurgy.

von Braun's dissertation was on engine design and testing. But when he built the Redstone missile in the USA, he ordered the engine from a US company -- the engine which was already a generation ahead, compared to the imported German engines which the US engineers studied after the war.

Meanwhile, the Soviets have developed even better engines, completely on their own, though with the important parts built using the materials and the equipment brought from Germany.

So it is debatable whether having the German higher-ups and having a greater continuity with German design philosophy was a good thing or a liability.

It is less well known, but France have also imported a significant number of ex-Peenemunde engineers for their program. And their engines developed in a way different from both the American ones and the Soviet ones -- which definitively shows that although internalizing the German know-how was the starting point for everyone, it did not define the path of subsequent development.

Of course, the engines were not the whole story. The Germans took to the USA the advanced prototypes of the inertial guidance systems which were developed for the missiles that were supposed to come after the V-2. And the Soviets got Helmut Gröttrup. This did have its effects in both cases.

lkey 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Would you say von Braun is your favorite SS officer? Or are there other contenders for your most favorite high 'caliber'!? Nazi?

lkey 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This is such a gross comment. 'nugget', 'win-win', 'Germans of value'.

Paperclip didn't grab random 'Germans', it pulled in Nazi mass murders and rewarded them for their crimes.

  > "Rudolph was barely able to produce four rockets that were later returned from Peenemünde as defective. There are estimates that approximately 20,000 laborers died while building the V-2 rockets at Mittelwerk, more than the V-2 killed in bombardments."

  > According to fellow scientists in Paperclip, Rickhey had bragged about killing slave laborers at Mittelwerk.

  >  Camp inmates, mostly Polish and Soviet POWs, were locked inside of a portable pressure chamber built by the Luftwaffe in which the interior air pressure could be altered to simulate the effects of freefalling from a high-altitude without oxygen. Of the 200 test subjects employed in the experiment 80 were killed by the tests outright, with the remainder subsequently being executed by the SS. ... several Luftwaffe officials associated with Strughold's Institute for Aviation Medicine, including his former research assistant Dr. Hermann Becker-Freyseng and his ex-commanding officer Oskar Schröder, were convicted of crimes against humanity in connection with the Dachau experiments at the 1946–1947 Nuremberg Doctor's Trial. During these proceedings, Strughold contributed several affidavits for the defense on behalf of his accused colleagues.

  > When shown a picture of himself standing behind Himmler, von Braun said that he had only worn the SS uniform that one time, but in 2002 a former SS officer at Peenemünde told the BBC that von Braun had regularly worn the SS uniform to official meetings. He began as an Untersturmführer (Second lieutenant) and was promoted three times by Himmler, the last time in June 1943 to SS-Sturmbannführer (Major). Von Braun later stated that these were simply technical promotions received each year regularly by mail.

  > The V-2 was a quantum leap of technological change. We got to the Moon using V-2 technology but this was technology that was developed with massive resources, including some particularly grim ones. The V-2 programme was hugely expensive in terms of lives, with the Nazis using slave labour to manufacture these rockets.
Winning a 'space race' by building a tower of 'slaves' and corpses to the stars isn't my idea of victory at all.
godwinson__4-8 3 hours ago | parent [-]

It seems you are misreading my comment and the cold realism in which it is articulated (and which the relevant historical actors in this moment operated under) as some sort of endorsement of the act or an ignorance of the accompanying atrocities.

Rest assured I only sought to comment in that manner because I find generally on a forum such as this, leading with a sense of outrage (regardless of how justified) is typically unhelpful. I share your sentiments, though I sort of take it as a given on this forum that these aspects of WWII are known. I would guess far less people know about Operation Paperclip, thus the "nugget".

If upon learning about this someone needs me to connect the dots to your sentiments, well frankly I would suggest such a person is likely beyond my reach given the nature of the venue we find ourselves in (pseudonymous forum).

I would encourage you to not so readily cast aspersions upon your fellow interlocutors here based on turn of phrase alone. Have a nice day.

cindyllm 3 hours ago | parent [-]

[dead]

bell-cot 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> If you were a German of value (like a rocket scientist) you were eager to surrender to the Americans before the Soviets could...

Misleading. Pretty much all Germans were eager to surrender to the Western Allies - US/UK/France. That became the German government's official top priority in the closing days of the war, and Eisenhower threatened to seal the Western Front (to German soldiers and civilians fleeing the Soviets) when the Germans dragged their heels on his terms of surrender.

A relatively brief treatment can be found here - https://history.army.mil/portals/143/Images/Publications/cat...

godwinson__4-8 4 hours ago | parent [-]

True, I just meant that if you had something of value (like rocket expertise) you would be more likely to get favorable terms. And you knew the Soviets would be extra interested in you. Thus the added "eagerness".

But yes the point is on the whole, Germans did not want to surrender to the Soviets. Germans didn't kill millions of American civilians. They didn't level American cities.

So, it was perfectly logical as Germany collapsed for any German to fear the retribution of the Soviet armed forces, who they had every reason to see as filled with a rage and a sense of purpose no American would have been able to contemplate.

talon8635 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

For any unfamiliar with the history, Russia was a mass murdering machine in this era, vaporizing tens of millions of people, including Russians, in very short spans of time without even a second thought.

We all know Germans was. And some people would fling fecal allegations that “so was the US!”. No. German and Russian actions were categorically different than wartime casualties (even brutal, possibly criminal, wartime casualties like fire bombing heavily civilian enemy areas like Dresden)

3 hours ago | parent | next [-]
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lkey 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

You're right, America didn't intentionally engineer the death of millions until after the war, when it became the undisputed global superpower.

...If you choose to intentionally ignore slavery in the American South, Convict Leasing, and Jim Crow.

see also what the CIA got up to in Indonesia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_mass_killings_of_19...

And in your living memory: Vietnam, Korea, the vile shit we did to Haiti and Chile, the 'Banana Republics', Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, unconditionally supporting Israel and the Gulf States various war crimes and genocides, etc...

And of course, most recently, the sudden and complete excision of life-saving aid to children in Africa, leaving the world's most vulnerable to starve.

And also the total embargo on Cuba, to ensure starvation, with the intention of conquest, resource extraction, and collective punishment.

but God forbid someone on a message board tarnish the US's sterling reputation (relative to some of history's worst) during WWII.

JewsKilledChr 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]