| ▲ | epistasis 21 hours ago |
| > Do you have kids? This right here, the absolutely preposterous idea that giving up kids is somehow climate action, is exactly the nonsense that a climate activist should never tolerate. You think climate action is everybody stopping having children?! You think extinction of the human race is the only option?! "Of course not!" You say, so clearly we must have some children. But how many? If we drastically reduce our population, we will continue with the same broken systems, same energy systems, etc. Only by keeping society running do we have the energy to switch our society's engine to zero carbon energy sources. It's insulting to tell people not to have children, it's not realistic, but worst of all, it's not a climate solution to not have children. "Don't have kids" is just Malthusian nonsense from a prior environmental era, uncritical thinking, pure slop. And it greatly harms actual climate action when this extremely stupid idea gets associated with the climate movement. Stop. Just stop. |
|
| ▲ | somenameforme 20 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| It's also completely self defeating. Children tend to end up adopting the values of their parents over time. If climate people just remove themselves from the gene pool, their impact on the climate is going to be negligibly small, but there being that many fewer voices of similar values in the future, will have a much more significant impact. Imagine you're a hyper-partisan and you learn that 'the other side' is spreading messaging amongst themselves encouraging each other to not have children. You're going to be doing backflips, because it's just the collective suicide of an ideology. |
| |
| ▲ | card_zero 20 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Children tend to end up adopting the values of their parents over time No, they don't. If that was true, we'd have prehistoric values. (It would mean you could turn matters of culture into genetic arguments, which is fun, I see the temptation, but it's just not true.) | | |
| ▲ | somenameforme 11 hours ago | parent [-] | | Consider evolution because it's something similar on an even more gradual scale. Species tend to be very much like the things they came from, yet we have obviously a wide array of species over time because small differences can accumulate on their own 'branch' and eventually diverge to the point of creating entirely new species. But if a species chose to just stop having children, it's not going to have anywhere near the numbers it once did, anytime soon. In extreme cases, it just goes extinct. It's similar with most views and values. Your children will mostly share all of them with you once they reach a certain age. It's something I can even feel happening with my own parents as I age, rather to my distaste. hahah. Anyhow, yeah - there's about a zillion studies on this topic and you can find that parents values are most predictive of those of their children. And of course with values and other characteristics, even if parental views/values are highly predictive, there's going to be some variance. But you still end up with the fact that if a bunch of people remove themselves from the gene pool, any definingly common characteristics of those individuals are also going to be disproportionately removed from society as well. | | |
| ▲ | card_zero 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | You're saying it again! It's still not true. People think about the values that they're handed. | | |
| ▲ | somenameforme 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | This isn't generally the sort of thing that calls for citations since you're presumably a human, and you presumably know plenty of other humans. And once you compare people to their parents, well - the apple doesn't fall far from the tree on average. There are of course plenty of exceptions, but it's also completely fair to call them exceptions. In looking up some literature on it, it turns out that some studies have even studied and found what I alluded to of people trending ever more towards their parents values as they age. [1] They call it 'delayed activation'. But anyhow, yeah they found the exact same thing where our values become even more alike as we age. Pretty interesting stuff! And I think it makes the age aspect quite critical. I assumed I was one of those exceptions referenced above, yet reality had other plans in mind, in spite of my protestations. [1] - https://sci-hub.si/https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/... |
|
|
|
|
|
| ▲ | pretzellogician 21 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Reducing population is a perfectly valid (partial) solution, and it also doesn't mean extinction. Telling people not to have kids may not be realistic, but... it's also happening already. |
| |
| ▲ | epistasis 20 hours ago | parent [-] | | Reducing population will not do anything to help with climate change. Look at the time scales of action. Look at what needs to done. Advocating population reduction has nothing at all to do with climate action. Please stop. You're just taking some idea that sounds vaguely "environmental" and extreme, and attributing it to somehow being climate action. It won't reduce emissions to stop climate change. |
|
|
| ▲ | LastTrain 20 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| A) I’m not a millennial. B) I have kids. C) I used that as one of several sacrifices that can be made to reduce carbon footprint. I would say it is more valid than “being vegan” since that alone may or may not help. Everyone is very ready to wag their finger about the sacrifices they are willing to make but excuse or ignore the ones they are not. |
| |
| ▲ | epistasis 20 hours ago | parent [-] | | A) I didn't say you're a millenial. B) Having kids is not an excuse for saying "don't have kids for the sake of the environment!" it's an awful, anti-environmental thing to say no matter what. C) Not having kids is not climate action, it doesn't stop climate change, it's at best a half-measure. Most of all, when people say "don't have kids for the environment" it actually really hurts environmental action. Pretending that self-sacrifice is inherently environmental action, that we will save the world through sacrifice, is just one of those weird ways that Christian religion has worked its way into people's every day life. We save the climate by stopping ALL emissions, and then also in the later half of the century actually sequestering CO2 at a pretty consistent rate. We don't get to that by halving the population, that's not a solution in any way. It's not going to be easier to get to zero emissions with half the population, if anything it's going to be harder. And we definitiely won't be sequestering CO2 in the later half of the century if we're dealing with all the challenges of reducing the population by any significant amount. I'm willing to wag my finger at you, not about sacrifices, but falsely equating climate action with sacrifices. Climate action is one thing and one thing only: reducing emissions and eventually reversing some of them. It is not sacrifice for the sake of sacrifice. | | |
| ▲ | LastTrain 12 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | If you look back at this thread, I’m not suggesting anyone should do anything, I’m pointing out the piousness of people suggesting we aren’t doing enough when they themselves have more they could do. Also, having fewer children absolutely would have a positive impact on climate if you subscribe to the ideas that climate change is human caused. I have two kids, I personally, for myself, think it would be irresponsible to have more but I wouldn’t push that on anyone. | |
| ▲ | rrr_oh_man 19 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > It is not sacrifice for the sake of sacrifice. Wholeheartedly agree |
|
|
|
| ▲ | koe123 20 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| I think your own values are coming through pretty clearly. Understandably, telling a parent they shouldnt have had kids is bound to strike a nerve. Having kids is great. Having kids is also the worst single thing you can do for the environment. Both can be true, and having kids definitely doesn't make someone bad. However putting kids on a pedestal is silly. If we push our civilization above earths sustainable carrying capacity, we are fucked. In isolation having them is beautiful, in the aggregate it can be bad. |
| |
| ▲ | epistasis 20 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Having kids is also the worst single thing you can do for the environment. No, just no. You can't show that. You don't understand environmentalism. You're just a Malthusian. It's an assertion that human existence is incompatible with the environment, and that's a completely unacceptable proposition, because it defines "environmentalism" as "extinction." Reducing the population by half will, at best, reduce emissions by half. That's not going to stop climate change. That's not climate action. That's not anything at all. I really wish people with your attitude would study ecology, would study biology, would study the world. Life, human and not, all affects the ecosystem. All life depends on other life. We all interact, we all change the world. Life has fundamentally changed the geology of Earth in absolutely drastic ways! Life is impact. Defining environmental purity as the absence is an ideology bereft of life, and the nature of life. | | |
| ▲ | card_zero 20 hours ago | parent [-] | | Is it possible that cutting emissions in half would stop climate change (after some time)? There is a tolerable level of emissions. I vaguely remember that it's half what we're at. | | |
| ▲ | epistasis 20 hours ago | parent [-] | | No, look at the numbers in the IPCC reports. Cutting emissions in half is not enough. We need to get to zero by 2050 then have interventions to sequester CO2 at a low level. |
|
|
|