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| ▲ | repeekad 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Which they never will on their own, so surely conservation regulations need to be enforced, too bad the US is moving backwards right now in that regard | | |
| ▲ | stouset 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | Then you get people (understandably) upset that just about any work they want to do to improve their own private land needs to involve the EPA and/or a local wildlife commission. | | |
| ▲ | fodkodrasz 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The modern phrasing of "improve" and "develop" for destroy is pretty upsetting to me. My environment was improved to an unliveable asphalt/gravel sprawl from edge of city with woods with frog and birdsong... | | |
| ▲ | stouset 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The two meanings are not synonymous. One can certainly destroy land through improving or developing it, one can also do improve it responsibly and minimally. Building one or two small permanent structures on many acres of forest is not destroying it by a long shot. | |
| ▲ | cucumber3732842 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Everything you do to waste land area by "lightly" touching it further increases sprawl because it increases the land required to do things. Environmentalism is in direct conflict with densely packing "stuff" onto land whether that's people or industry. If you want to preserve nature embrace the "concrete jungle" and the density it brings. Look at historical small towns vs modern build outs of the same population. Despite building maybe four stories high at most 50k people in some New England or Midwest mill town fit on a tiny fraction of the developed area of the same modern population simply because environmentalists weren't around to mandate engineered drainage ditches and green spaces and setbacks and require every podunk business have fire lanes a drunk could back a lowboy into and all planters in their parking lot and the other stuff | | |
| ▲ | oatmeal1 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | High density development leaving as much pristine nature as possible is vastly superior to sprawl for the environment, but the comment you replied to didn't seem to describe a density issue. | | |
| ▲ | cucumber3732842 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Regardless we'd do a lot more pinprick development and develop fewer acres and there'd be less pressure to do greenfield development if not for the rules adopted at the behest of half baked 20th century environmentalism. |
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| ▲ | thunderfork 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | environmentalists well-known for instituting fire lane policies | | |
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| ▲ | nkrisc 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The alternative is we drive ourselves ever closer to the brink. It is entirely possible that our current way of living, including the idea of “private land” as it exists today, may not be conducive to our long-term survival. The forces of nature care not for our political and philosophical debates. | |
| ▲ | AngryData 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | If you don't want to deal with swampy land full of beavers, don't buy swampy land full of beavers. They should of done a better job purchasing land. | | |
| ▲ | stouset 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | This is the opposite of a useful perspective. Someone, definitionally, owns all the privately held land in the US. Large landowners in rural areas are on average more politically connected and wield more political power in their communities. Telling them that any sort of work on their own land—no matter how small—requires extensive oversight might be well-intentioned but pisses off a lot of people who will then become bitter opponents of even well-designed environmental legislation. Telling them they should have made better purchasing decisions just motivates them even further. What actually ends up happening is these people then do it anyway with zero oversight, because the amount of land involved is too vast to enforce these things on. You also get large concerted efforts to overturn any and all environmental protection. | | |
| ▲ | AngryData 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | You act like it is impossible to use land that beavers live on without destroying the beaver dams or removing the beavers, and yet there are plenty of people that do that very thing their entire lives without a problem. I didn't say they can't do anything with their land, but if you live on land with beavers you should know how beavers and beaver dams work so you don't do something stupid, like building a structure in the flood path of a stream or river full of beavers, or killing the beavers so that you can and then complaining about the beavers coming back. Complaining about how beavers work and what beavers are doing on your land is the same as building on a historic floodplain and then complaining about it flooding. Or building in hurricane territory and complaining about hurricanes. Or building in the woods and complaining about deer eating your plants and trees falling on your driveway. One person's lack of foresight is not and should not be everybody and everything else's problem. Do your research before you buy things. Only an asshole buys and/or builds next to an area with long established feature X and then complains about feature X existing and how its "unfair" they can't have it taken down or destroyed at will. | | |
| ▲ | stouset 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | No, but I do believe that the people who actually own these lands almost universally think that the government unnecessarily interferes with their ability to make small improvements that don’t meaningfully impact wildlife. I agree with this kind of oversight. But as someone with a friend who is both an environmentalist and does own land adjacent to a river and land managed by the national forest service, the latitude for what you can actually do without serious oversight is essentially nothing. Luckily what he wants to do is essentially nothing, but even the very minimal bits he does want to do—which includes making fire breaks in a populated area which is wildfire-prone—is questionable. It’s been eye opening to see the lengths he’s had to go to in order to stay on the right side of things. And it’s given me a decent perspective on the burden it puts on even those who want do to be responsible landowners. It’s also been interesting to learn about the perverse incentives it does put on those who own this kind of land. One example is that new paths generally can’t be cleared, except when a wildfire happens, if you can justify it as part of firefighting or fire prevention efforts. So if and when there is a fire nearby, bulldozers come out in droves. I’ll leave you to connect that to what might be the root cause of some of these fires. |
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| ▲ | mulmen 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Ignoring externalities remains popular. We live in a society. I can’t build a helipad on my roof in the middle of Seattle. Technically that’s a limitation on my personal liberty. We accept it because of the cost to the people around me. | | |
| ▲ | rylando 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Unfortunately it seems like considering the cost to those around you is becoming a dying art | |
| ▲ | 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | messe 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Good? They don't own the commons. |
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| ▲ | cmrdporcupine 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Beavers can be incredibly difficult to live alongside of. My parents have 100+ acres of bush in central Alberta. When they bought the property it was logged out and mostly in a bad abused state and mostly dry. Over a few years, beavers moved in and transformed a formerly semi-marshy spot into a full pond. And then another. And another. Eventually though, without a lot of predators around (there's some skittish bears, coyotes, that's it) they begin to overpopulate. And any efforts to keep the water level at a certain point starts to get tricky. In order to keep access to some parts of the property my dad ended up having to put in some sneaky culverts with various tricks to stop them from plugging them. (I forget, but he eventually figured out a beaverproof trick). Even then, every few years the need to "remove" some of the beavers, because they just get to be too many, they run out of poplars near their lodge and start to cause more problems for downstream and upstream neighbours. They've done amazing things for the property. But when my parents pass it's going to be hard to maintain this property with the beavers actively trying to transform it constantly. | | |
| ▲ | xandrius 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Throw in some wolves and create a brand new set of problems :) | | | |
| ▲ | arthurbrown 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | What are the problems actually? That they have improved water retention and soil hydration? | | |
| ▲ | jpollock 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | They will continue to breed, expanding territory unless there are predators. When they come across a culvert (or bridge), they will block it, eventually overtopping roads and washing them out. | | |
| ▲ | bluefirebrand a minute ago | parent | next [-] | | > They will continue to breed, expanding territory unless there are predators Maybe part of the problem is that humans in North America are largely not hunting beavers anymore? We're very capable of being the predators that keep animal populations in check, and plenty of people do still hunt, but I don't think I've ever heard of anyone hunting beavers in my life | |
| ▲ | giardini 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Is there no more demand for beaver pelt and/or meat? I've heard the tail is particularly tasty and easy to skin and cook. | |
| ▲ | arthurbrown 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Thanks for the good faith reply. I can see that this would require regular maintenance. It is interesting that we see our infrastructure as 'valid' or correct, but the work these engineers (beavers) put in as a nuisance. In an ideal world, the benefits to local biodiversity and ecosystem health should be balanced with the cost of relocating roads when necessary. |
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| ▲ | tosapple 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | what's wrong with it not reverting to nature when they pass? people put flowers on loved ones graves. | | |
| ▲ | cmrdporcupine an hour ago | parent [-] | | floods roads, buildings, neighbour's properties. they are very persistent buggers and breed like... rodents |
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| ▲ | cogogo 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Busy beaver problem? | |
| ▲ | parodysbird 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Why are you wanting transform the beavers property? |
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| ▲ | evan_ 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | this is basically the inciting incident of the recent movie Hoppers | |
| ▲ | cucumber3732842 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Because the government makes the water that comes with them a huge liability. Tons of vacant land owners would be happy to allow beavers and everything else if not for the fact that it destroys any prospect of doing anything on the land. | | |
| ▲ | devilbunny 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | His freeform, not-too-serious libertarianism can easily be mocked, but PJ O’Rourke did have a very good point about well-intentioned but counterproductive environmental legislation like the laws governing wetlands: imagine that, should an Old Master painting be discovered on your property, you were required immediately to cease all other use of the property and protect that Old Master painting against damage or theft, under penalty of law, but without any compensation for the expenses this might incur. You can imagine that any new ones found would simply be burned immediately, not protected. And wetlands laws work a bit like that. |
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