Remix.run Logo
nairboon 6 hours ago

Just for reference, stuff like this is exactly why some people oppose the forced Apple/Google requirement in government systems like the new eIDs (eIDAS) in Europe. If you're forced to use Apple/Google for digital identification, playing around with your Google account and get it banned can have disproportional consequences. Suddenly you're locked out of all online government systems.

throwaway13337 an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Maybe we should reframe how we see the big gate keepers like Google and Apple as they seem to be a new concept. They are not governments but have properties of them.

Governments are defined as having a monopoly on violence. And we, through a lot of struggles, were able to attenuate this power such that this power was not granted to a single person alone but both distributed to the judgement of many and codified so that, in theory, no one is above the law. Even imperfect, this cultural belief that governments should behave as such has caused it to be, in a flawed way, more true than it used to be.

These digital gate keepers have special powers that control identity, the algorithms deciding your information awareness, and access to what society now requires to live a normal life. So, what are they? And where is our enlightenment stage? What sorts of human rights are there in this world that we agree on, at least culturally.

I don't believe government regulation is the answer - it has both failed and centralizes again in fewer hands. The thing we need is cultural understanding first of this new sort of entity. And an ethics system that we can agree on that can constrain them as the Magna Carta once described.

How should our collective values shape this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Carta

icantevenhold a minute ago | parent [-]

We should break these companies apart - they should not have that level of power.

giancarlostoro 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

At that point, Google and Apple should be legally barred from fully banning you if it impedes you identifying yourself unless your account is hacked.

RedShift1 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Gov. logins and services should never depend on companies like Google.

9cb14c1ec0 27 minutes ago | parent [-]

This is the solution. Implementing auth isn't that difficult.

toomuchtodo 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Google and Apple should be legally mandated to federate with nation state identity systems. This prevents them from revoking access, as the identity management is within nation state control vs big tech. You potentially have recourse with your government, you have no recourse with Google and Apple (current state). They may consume your identity for your benefit, but they may not control your digital identity. If a Big Tech company chooses to ban you, they should be required to provide you, at their cost, a copy of all of your data stored with them and report that they did so to a regulator.

I strongly doubt the US would mandate this, but could see the EU doing so. The technical primitives exist and implementation is straightforward. Without a law, this will not change, there is no incentive for it to change.

subscribed 9 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

> Google and Apple should be legally mandated to federate with nation state identity systems.

With which states?

I'm I'm a citizen of two and live in the third, potentially having eSIM of the fourth?

toomuchtodo 4 minutes ago | parent [-]

The same states and countries they integrate with today for digital identity verification. If you have a passport, national ID card, or US state ID or driver's license, you have a government provided digital identity that can bound to and authenticated against. I'm probably missing a government credential, but the backend database lookup is trivial.

https://learn.wallet.apple/id

https://wallet.google/intl/en_us/digitalid/

PontifexMinimus an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

The way the EU could implement this is to mandate only using identity providers can guarantee they will not revoke people's identities, and the only way to make that guarantee watertight is to mandate only identity providers based within the EU.

toomuchtodo an hour ago | parent [-]

There are no guarantees unfortunately, just contracts (formal and informal) that can be broken and paths as to what happens when those contracts degrade or fail. Agree with you on mandating EU only idps for those who reside within the EU jurisdiction.

megagpt1 13 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Which is funny because the government can't legally ban you from the government. If you suffer any consequences from this, the government is at fault in every case. Of course, good luck proving it while you're in jail.

exe34 26 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's actually why I will never use any of Google's paid services like compute or LLMs or storage. I will not risk my access to important services. "Free" Gmail and search is all I will use.

verisimi 33 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

We already live in fascism - governments and corporations are just wings of the same bird.

shevy-java 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It is a very clear act of total betrayal for europan governments to use taxpayers money from Europeans, to invest into US mega-corporations that proxy-enslave Europeans. Lobbyists in Europe are getting rich right now.

lenerdenator 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Who gets the money shouldn't be your focus, it's that there's even talk of anyone building such a system at all that should be the focus.

Europe has a long history of government abuses of human rights. There's absolutely no guarantee that such a system being designed and implemented by people in Europe as opposed to the US is a safeguard against any sort of human rights issues.

logicchains an hour ago | parent [-]

What do you mean, you don't think a party named the "Alternative for Deutschland" would make benevolent use of such systems when it gets into power?