| ▲ | goatlover 8 hours ago |
| The question for optimists is, if AI succeeds in it's promise, what sort of society do they envision being the result? For one thing, I don't think everyone except the extremely wealthy being on basic income is ideal or better than what we have now. |
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| ▲ | pj_mukh 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| The question for doomers is why is this time different? Why aren't LLM's just the tractors of the Information Age? Saying "I became a farmer/owner/operator by getting close to the soil and using a manual soil tiller to learn about the soil. Using a tractor means there are no entry-level agriculture jobs anymore" would've been just as valid 200 years ago. So why is it different this time? |
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| ▲ | ToucanLoucan 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > The question for doomers is why is this time different? Difference 1: The tools themselves only exist due to rampant exploitation of vast intellectual resources that were created, catalogued, and published with the intent to help people learn, not machines. And this was frequently done against the explicit expressed wishes of the holders and creators of those resources. Difference 2: The tools do not work deterministically. Every run of a prompt is effectively pulling a lever on a slot machine. Sometimes you win, sometimes you don't. However just like a good slot machine, the developers behind them have put a number of little touches and "features" that change nothing about the underlying machinery and instead explicitly target psychological weak points to build trust and confidence in said tools. Difference 3: The tools do not work reliably. Agents are a complete shitshow but even if you strictly work in the confines of a chat bot, it will occasionally just make shit up, in our industry that means: code that does not compile and run. Hallucination has been a consistent issue since day 1 of this tech and probably the most impactful to user experience overall, and despite these facts it hasn't been solved in the subsequent 3 years whatsoever. It is by every account I've read, an intractable problem because these are machines that are fundamentally designed to make approximate representations of final products that look plausible, not that function correctly. That is a big distinction and it matters. Difference 4: Saturation. Despite your assertion above, there was virtually no drive to prevent the ascent of tractors. Tractors were in high demand basically as soon as they were available, barring some ups and downs as the technology was fully built out and proven. The advent of motor vehicles as a whole completely redesigned our cities and to a great degree, society itself. Horses are still around today but as a hobby for monied people. Despite all of the above, Silicon Valley is simply tripping over itself, pouring literally billions of dollars into these things, and putting them in every product category whether it makes sense or not. This engenders a lack of trust, not just for the ethics of the tool itself, but whether OpenAI and company actually think this is good, or weather it simply must be good or the entire show is going to come crashing down around them. Instead of a product vision, where a company is setting out to solve specific problems with well made solutions, we have a few companies who feel distinctly desperate, trying to get their product in front of as many eyes as humanly possible, irrespective of it's ability to add any value at all to what those eyes are looking at. | | | |
| ▲ | krapp 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | >Why aren't LLM's just the tractors of the Information Age? We didn't have every company and every government in the world spending trillions of dollars to completely reorganize society and technology around tractors, and to force them into every possible aspect of our lives whether people want them or not, to the point that tractors are all but existentially necessary to maintain our technological civilization. We didn't have billionaires with deeply entrenched political interests believing in a cult of neo-fascist "tractor accelerationism." We didn't have people forming parasocial relationships with tractors so deep and profound that they superceded their relationships with real people, and subsumed their own identities. Tractors didn't gaslight people into insanity and suicide. There's no such thing as "tractor psychosis." No one committed murder to pacify the Tractor Basilisk. Tractors didn't flood every form of media with misinformation and slop that in a decade's time will make subjective reality and history utterly indecipherable from its own gibberish. No one believed that tractors would lead to a perfect post-scarcity utopia... somehow. But only when everyone submits to tractors and the new world order that tractors will create and accepts that tractors are the new reality and that they just have to learn to live with that, regardless of any harm they might do. No one forgot how to farm because they used tractors. There was no mass loss of farming knowledge or "deskilling," or degradation of cognitive or social abilities that came with using tractors. There was no one complaining about how utterly meaningless farming had become now that tractors came along, but they themselves had become so addicted to tractor-maxxing that they couldn't simply stop. And on top of that, no one wanted to replace farmers entirely with tractors, just because tractors didn't need to be paid. And then the plumbers. And the architects. And the cooks. And the doctors. And eventually the judges, police and politicians. LLMs are very obviously not the tractors of the information age. If they were, Hacker News wouldn't be consumed by them. People wouldn't talk about them with the same awe and passion usually reserved for religion. | | |
| ▲ | pj_mukh 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Your complaints are about the algorithmic feed, and civilizational over-dependence on mobile phones and feeds. I'm with you on that and I do wish AI wasn't introduced in that particular environment. However behind it all most token usage is driven by automating TPS reports and writing code [1]. In that dominant token usage context, the LLM is clearly just a boring old tractor. Yes, some people are falling in love with their tractor because of an existing technology that has opened us up to that possibility, but that doesn't change the fact that the tractor is mostly being used to till the farm and that our algorithm driven media environment no longer allows coverage of that because its too boring. [1]: https://www.anthropic.com/research/economic-index-june-2026-... |
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| ▲ | skeledrew 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Not if. When AI becomes ubiquitous (like electricity and vehicles have), even the concept of income will disappear. Things will just be available for people to satisfy their needs, because scarcity (primarily caused by bad resource distribution) will essentially disappear. |
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| ▲ | hi_im_greg_h 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | right... AI will magically fix greed and we'll all live happily ever after | |
| ▲ | bigstrat2003 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | No, it's very much "if". AI can't even do the things it is claimed to be good at today. It is a wash, or a small gain, for engineers of any reasonable competence. The idea that it's going to replace people is not remotely guaranteed based on current capabilities. | |
| ▲ | goatlover 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You're describing an economic situation that has never happened. Electricity and vehicles didn't make income dissapear. | |
| ▲ | almostdeadguy 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | So in the short term, it seems likely to deflate the cost of software and other products/services produced by professional workers. If it becomes good at other forms of production (i.e. physical things, physical labor, etc.), perhaps it causes currency exchange to become pointless. There are a few caveats to this that everyone seems to leap over, one very important one is that the a priori control of production, land, and natural resources is not egalitarian, and there's no reason to really believe it would become egalitarian even if people could in theory produce everything they wanted/needed for themselves. But even barring that, we live in a world with finite natural resources. And that by itself should be a serious concern for anyone who sees this as a possibility. I get that optimists also seem to believe that technology we don't have like dyson spheres, asteroid mining, intergalactic travel, etc. will solve any resource scarcity concerns, but that is not a given, and developing any of those things would still rely on our planets natural resources to even bootstrap. We live in a world that can't even coordinate the safe development of models or nuclear anti-proliferation, and already experiences rampant injustice surrounding use of our planets natural resources, which does not bode well for the future. And even if we did end up in a world where these problems were solved, advanced models posed no threat to our existence, etc. they would not be solved instantaneously, and would likely cause catastrophic changes to society and massive amounts of suffering. We can solve scarcity of basic needs and access to medical care, decarbonization, etc. today. Without the use of AI. We do not need to go through years of suffering because tech execs want their play things. |
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| ▲ | jmathai 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I consider myself an AI optimist. From what I've seen, I think there's a lot of headroom for it to expand it's disruption. I also dislike the future that would result in. Heck, I want to go back to pre-iPhone. |
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| ▲ | almostdeadguy 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Yeah I'd actually call myself a "pessimist" personally, I think AI seems to be advancing at a rate where we should be concerned about that. I used to be of the mind that dooming was entirely about marketing/hype, but I don't believe that any more. The models are really good, the huggingface hack was extremely concerning, and when their executives post things like this, I believe them (even if I don't like them): https://x.com/deanwball/status/2094788634729660906 |
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| ▲ | js8 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| "I don't think everyone except the extremely wealthy being on basic income is ideal or better than what we have now" Seriously? One sixth of the U.S. population is food-insecure. You don't think that basic income would fix that? |
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| ▲ | goatlover 8 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | By putting almost everyone else on basic income because they're jobs were automated? How much would that need to be? Even if it's enough for basic needs, you're relegating most of the population to a low class status with limited options for improving their situation. Food insecurity could be fixed now if it wasn't a politically divisive issue. There's no reason to believe UBI won't be even more divisive. | | |
| ▲ | js8 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | I don't understand what you're saying. I agree that food insecurity could be fixed; it's a redistribution problem. UBI is a way to fix it. But I don't see how we are forcing people to be low class with UBI (as opposed to having them unemployed or doing precarious work that doesn't pay even the basic needs). | | |
| ▲ | skeledrew 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The problem with UBI is that it's presuming the economic system mostly remains as it is (supply and demand -> buying and selling), but the suppliers will merely keep increasing their prices to maintain status quo. Unless costs are also heavily regulated, which is tangential to the implementation of UBI. In the end the only thing UBI does is delay the inevitable crash of the economic system. Maybe. | |
| ▲ | goatlover 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | How much UBI would be needed for most of the population to live comfortable middle class lives? UBI isn't going to be acceptable if it reduces the middle class to just above the poverty line. People want more than just having enough to eat. So while it may solve the problem for people who are food insecure, it will create a problem for those who were better off with good paying jobs. You can't just reduce 95%+ of the population to simply meeting basic needs and not facing serious societal discontent. |
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| ▲ | verdverm 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Basic income sounds like welfare dressed up, where is the dignity of work, where is the independence from dependence? You shouldn't bite the hand that feeds you, sounds like less freedom to me, which is why I think the oligarchy is the one the earnest proposers of the idea | | |
| ▲ | js8 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | You should ask the billionaires about "dignity of work", they are the welfare queens. And also about "independence" on the people who work for them. What you're saying is just classist prejudice. |
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