| ▲ | bawolff a day ago |
| It does seem like its way too easy to do this kind of fraud. The study seems extremely easy to replicate (no fancy equipment needed, just ask some people to proofread), and yet nobody did until now. Is there some way to change incentives to get people to try and replicate? Assign undergrads to replicate random research papers? |
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| ▲ | dbrans a day ago | parent | next [-] |
| Replication is unpaid QA on someone else's product. Nobody gets tenure for finding the bug, hence the field has been meaning to get around to it for 20 years. |
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| ▲ | MarceliusK a day ago | parent | next [-] | | And the incentives are arguably worse than QA: you get little credit if the result replicates, and potentially a lot of grief if it doesn't. Novel results build careers. Checking them mostly doesn't | |
| ▲ | pinkmuffinere a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | On the other hand, this seems like a super interesting path for an (unglamorous) PhD -- replicate the N most important findings in a field, subject to some restrictions (maybe focus on the ones that are "easy", or haven't been replicated yet, or the ones that could be patched together to make an acceptable PhD thesis). This sort of stuff really appeals to me, I think I might end up doing something like that in 5-10 years. | | |
| ▲ | fercircularbuf 21 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I share your enthusiasm for this. Creating a map of the most influential research across all the fields to identify the highest priority work, any work replicating that work or validating that work by building from it would be a good start. Ideally funded by governments, but institutions, companies, and individuals could put up bounties for replicating particular research. | |
| ▲ | Tomte a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Good luck finding an advisor/a department that awards PhDs for that. “It’s not novel”. | | |
| ▲ | pinkmuffinere 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | I think you're right that this will be the most common objection, but wrong that it will be exceedingly difficult to find an advisor that would support this. I assume that if you _can_ overturn some foundational result, you won't face criticism over novelty (potentially you can argue that overturning important accepted results is inherently novel). Then the rest is just math: Assume that n% of foundational studies are demonstrably incorrect if replication were attempted. Then if you replicate X foundational studies, there's a 1 - (1-n/100)^X chance that you'll show one foundational study to be incorrect. Then I think you just need to find an advisor who believes the incorrectness rate n, and the replication attempts X is high enough for you to revert a foundational study over the course of your PhD. |
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| ▲ | eproxus a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Universities, institutions and publications who care about their reputation should pay people to replicate studies performed by people they employ in their name. Otherwise they will loose their trustworthiness. But perhaps it is not as big a shame for them as some think it should be... |
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| ▲ | pinkmuffinere a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > The study seems extremely easy to replicate (no fancy equipment needed, just ask some people to proofread), and yet nobody did until now They were just putting it off. |
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| ▲ | zug_zug 19 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| My proposal, once you complete your study, if you find a significant positive result you should be required (prior to publication) to describe your methodology in full, and have another lab (who you never have any contact with) blindly take your methodology, and repeat it (on video), and then do their own independent analysis of the data. It's okay if it's $200k or so to do each of these, the university should pay. The point is if this methodology were applied people would have incentive to cheat anymore. It would also serve as an immediate replication. Schools won't do this because they have a perverse incentive for big successes and quiet retractions. It's corruption all the way up. |
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| ▲ | spacephysics 18 hours ago | parent [-] | | Would be a great way for up and coming researchers to learn and apply skills before attempting to work in labs pursuing novel research. Maybe some joint effort across a large number of research schools which function as “proportional to number of students in your program, X number of validation studies must be performed” with maybe some monetary or access incentives aligned. Since we’ve had student loans all but guaranteed, and therefore cost of schooling skyrocketing, the flywheel of pursing higher profits and more bureaucratic cruft (looking at ratios of university staff to students), its no wonder that incentive has extended to research. |
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| ▲ | edgyquant a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Why do we even accept anything as true without replication by default? |
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| ▲ | andrewla 17 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Speak for yourself! My default position for a long time has been that all results in the social sciences are garbage. If they go against intuition or my biases, then they are most likely garbage. If they confirm my intuition or my biases, then they are definitely garbage. | | |
| ▲ | edgyquant 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Sure but I mean the community as a whole. Why has there been allowed to be a reproducibility problem at all? Why has the consensus not always been that without provably reproducible results it’s not to be taken seriously? |
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| ▲ | EA-3167 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Why do people on this site love nutrition and self-medication fads? People are surprisingly thoughtless. | | |
| ▲ | argee a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Or as one might say, predictably irrational. | |
| ▲ | vjulian a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Because “science” doesn’t know everything, and people don’t want to wait until their options are scientifically-validated. Yoga, breathing exercises, meditation and the like were once considered fads and derided by your ‘science’. | | |
| ▲ | lelanthran a day ago | parent | next [-] | | > Yoga, breathing exercises, meditation and the like were once considered fads and derided by your ‘science’. What do you mean "once"? | | |
| ▲ | ShinyLeftPad a day ago | parent [-] | | In case you don't follow the field: https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/meditation-and-mindfulness-... | | |
| ▲ | lelanthran a day ago | parent [-] | | > Meditation and mindfulness practices may have a variety of health benefits and may help people improve the quality of their lives. Recent studies have investigated if meditation or mindfulness helps people manage anxiety, stress, depression, pain, or symptoms related to withdrawal from nicotine, alcohol, or opioids. > Other studies have looked at the effects of meditation or mindfulness on weight control or sleep quality. > However, much of the research on these topics has been preliminary or not scientifically rigorous. Because the studies examined many different types of meditation and mindfulness practices, and the effects of those practices are hard to measure, results from the studies have been difficult to analyze and may have been interpreted too optimistically. This is just a polite way of saying "there's no evidence of them actually doing anything*". I mean, that's exactly what you'd tell someone who believed in the healing powers of homeopathy or chiropracty(sp?). |
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| ▲ | edgyquant 18 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | That’s different as I don’t think anyone needs science to feel the benefits of yoga or breathwork but lots of people want to enact policies based social studies that are not able to be reproduced. | |
| ▲ | lostlogin a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | How do you decide whether something works or not? | | |
| ▲ | qsera a day ago | parent [-] | | You don't. It is too costly and thus risky. Instead you do a charade and convince authorities (who just want to cover their asses citing some vetted studies) and people that your stuff work. It is "ass covering" all the way. Not "does it work" all the way... |
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| ▲ | EA-3167 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Scientists know that they don’t know everything and act accordingly, they don’t make claims for the efficacy of the things they don’t know. People here routinely do. | |
| ▲ | 028363922092 a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Are you a vendor of orgone accumulators or a staunch believer and customer? |
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| ▲ | dartharva 18 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [dead] |
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| ▲ | mike_hearn a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Replication is overrated. There's no point in doing more of it. You'd just replicate a ton of bad science: https://blog.plan99.net/replication-studies-cant-fix-science... N.B. nobody needed to replicate this study. It only took basic sanity checks to spot that it was very unlikely to be true (and thus, very unlikely to replicate). And they went much further than needed. They could have stopped at "the claimed effect is much larger than the height difference between men and women". This obviousness is a common pattern: https://www.fantasticanachronism.com/p/whats-wrong-with-soci... > Prediction markets work well because predicting replication is easy. There's no need for a deep dive into the statistical methodology or a rigorous examination of the data, no need to scrutinize esoteric theories for subtle errors—these papers have obvious, surface-level problems. So you could also say, how do we change the incentives to get people to peer review properly? That would be a lot cheaper. The obvious solution is for people to get paid to audit work professionally, and be fired if they sign off on bad results. But that exists already, it's called a corporate lab. Managers are incentivized by carrots and sticks to properly understand what their researchers are doing and if anyone is doing fraud they will be fired, maybe prosecuted. Universities don't do this because so much of what they do exists purely to spend money, with no higher purpose. There's no specific goal or outcome they're trying to achieve, and so no reason to do unpleasant things like enforcing incentives to get there. So in the end the solution is just to defund university research. The social structures are fundamentally unfixable. You'll never get people to care if the only purpose of their job's existence is to convince voters governments are funding science. |
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| ▲ | jasonfarnon a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| "easy to replicate (no fancy equipment needed, just ask some people to proofread)" ? This was a human subject study, that would cost $$ and there would be very little upside to confirmation and only a little notoriety with a failure to replicate (which by the way is not dispositive, people might need multiple failed replications to know who to believe, depending on the size of the replication). Maybe you didn't read the post: this was data fraud discovered by statistical irregularities. That is indeed becoming easy to spot with more widespread statistical literacy, at least for unsophisticated jobs like this from decades ago. |
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| ▲ | p-e-w a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Is there some way to change incentives to get people to try and replicate? Sure. Pay them to do it. |
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| ▲ | tempestn a day ago | parent [-] | | If the culture shifted such that people were skeptical of original results but excited about replication, replication would be the big news and people would want to do it. How to get there, I don't know. | | |
| ▲ | ChrisMarshallNY a day ago | parent | next [-] | | I seem to remember a lot of hype about room-temperature superconductors, that croaked upon [lack of] replication. That wasn't too long ago. Before that, cold fusion. We still have the ion drive that doesn't require fuel. I don't think it has ever been successfully replicated, but I think that it also hasn't been successfully repudiated, either. This kind of thing has been going on for a long time. I suspect that not all of it is deliberate fraud, but rather, people wanting their preconceived bias to be satisfied. | | |
| ▲ | unloader6118 a day ago | parent [-] | | Replicating superconductor experiment gives you the conductor and the skill. Both of them are useful as is. Replicating a social experiment, when successful, don't give you anything new. |
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| ▲ | jasonfarnon a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | No, that would never happen. People would just be skeptical of most findings until they see replications (where we are headed in the social sciences, anyway). If people see replications the original discoverer will get all the accolades, not the (several) replications. | | |
| ▲ | vkazanov a day ago | parent [-] | | Or maybe we shouldnt call anything "science" until it assumes replication of foundational results. Physics solved this quite some time ago. |
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| ▲ | qsera a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Then it "replication" becomes a target and thus would be gamed instead. This is a constant tug of war.. |
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| ▲ | ModernMech 19 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Fund it. Unfortunately there's hardly any money for regular studies, let alone replication studies. If you want better science there has to be tax dollars behind it. Otherwise corporations choose what gets funded, and they only fund narratives and experiments they think will be profitable for them. |
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| ▲ | morning-coffee 16 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Otherwise corporations choose what gets funded, and they only fund narratives and experiments they think will be profitable for them. Well, that's the incentive mechanism that keeps the accountability for the results whether we like it or not. The government doesn't immediately go out of business if the research they fund is full of fraud or goes nowhere useful. Moral outrage at all the fraud in research associated with these Universities and government funded studies isn't a powerful enough incentive mechanism to correct that fraud, apparently. |
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| ▲ | MarceliusK a day ago | parent | prev [-] |
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