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| ▲ | somenameforme a day ago | parent | next [-] | | The reality of the world is that when the US sets e.g. environmental or labor standards, we basically end up offshoring the affected industries to other places. Because those standards increase the cost of production which makes it more economical to produce stuff in a country that doesn't have such standards. With completely free trade, everything would be made in whichever country has the lowest standards, which is rather contrary to the implied values when passing environmental and labor standards in the first place. You could then try to make laws that countries we import from must abide certain standards, but just gets gamed endlessly. For instance cacao/chocolate makes extensive use of child slavery [1]. There have been numerous lawsuits over this until the Supreme Court ruled in 2021 that you could no longer sue Nestle/Cargill/Hershey/etc over child slavery in their supply lines. They were being sued because their oversight came down to asking, 'Hey you're not using child labor right?' 'Nah.' 'Cheers then, carry on.' When a company's goal is to not see something, they do a very good job of becoming blind. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_labour_in_cocoa_producti... | | |
| ▲ | nl a day ago | parent [-] | | Labor costs are orders of magnitude more than costs added by environmental or labor standards. The average hourly rate in the US is $42.50. In Vietnam is is $6.30, in the Philippines it is $5.40[1] These aren't people living in poverty - they live well. OTOH environmental legislation costs are harder to come by, but [2] estimates around 10% in a number of case studies. To be specific, that would mean US cost would be $4 less - that's still around 6 times the cost of Vietnam [1] https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/average-hourly-earnings [2] https://www.oecd.org/content/dam/oecd/en/publications/report... | | |
| ▲ | somenameforme a day ago | parent | next [-] | | That paper discusses only the effect of increasing energy costs, and seems highly dubious as well. Their conclusion is that increases in energy prices would have a small effect that could even be positive. We got to see what happens after increasing energy prices since 2022. The effects have been neither modest nor positive. They studied only modest changes from the past, but they were speaking of energy costs shifts on a scale aiming to shift Earth's climate, which is not modest. The cost is going to be much more than 10%. Also the US economy is increasingly polarized so averages mislead. The median hourly is a bit under $21. [1] You also need to account for what happened to the economy after we start shipping these affected jobs overseas. That's an entire segment of the economy which is going to influence wages, consumption, and other distributions. I agree wages are always going to be a major factor, but we can also afford a premium because shipping stuff half way around the world isn't free, the broader economic impact of having less control over your supply line is itself also a significant cost, and so on. [1] - https://data.bls.gov/PDQWeb/le | | |
| ▲ | esseph 20 hours ago | parent [-] | | I was coming to comment just on that average, but I'm glad you caught it. |
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| ▲ | IAmBroom 18 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > These aren't people living in poverty - they live well. We're discussing forced child labor, and you conclude "they live well". | | |
| ▲ | nl 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | No, I'm discussing people living on the average hourly wage. |
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| ▲ | LoganDark a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | What are you saying? If people all choose a shitty version from China, there will be no market for a good local version and businesses will stop trying. The investment required to match China's manufacturing capability in any area is simply impossible unless you say it is an AI data center. | | |
| ▲ | agileAlligator 21 hours ago | parent [-] | | on what basis do you claim the local product is "good" if people are not choosing it? | | |
| ▲ | IAmBroom 18 hours ago | parent [-] | | You can manipulate the meaning of "good" to suit your purpose, but it generally refers to quality. Cost is a different aspect entirely. A one-dollar scoop of ice cream and a $100 scoop are both good. | | |
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