| ▲ | apexalpha 6 hours ago |
| This is a pretty reductive take. If a nation works 6 days a week, 12 hours a shift then obviously they will outcompete any nation where people work 5 days a week for 8 hours. Protecting workers from that kind of competition seems fair. Tariffs aren't bad in itself. They are just a tool. Unfortunately fools wielding a tool like this can cause a lot of damage, but that's true for any tool. |
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| ▲ | thcipriani 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| The comic satirizes the 2026 US tariff rationale, vs. worker protection tariffs. But I do often think about Noam Chomsky's opposition to NAFTA[0] when talking heads explain why tariffs are bad. [0]: <https://chomsky.info/secrets03/> |
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| ▲ | neaden 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| "If a nation works 6 days a week, 12 hours a shift then obviously they will outcompete any nation where people work 5 days a week for 8 hours." - This is not obviously true to me, can you explain why it is for you? |
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| ▲ | budman1 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Although it is not a law of nature, and it is not linear across the hours.. In general if I work M-F more work will be done that if I just work on Monday morning. | | |
| ▲ | MeetingsBrowser 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It is clear that more work is done if you go from 1 day to 5 or 1 hour to 8, but that still includes plenty of time for rest. Does the same hold for going from 5 days to 7 days or 8 hours to 16 hours? A reasonable person should agree at some point adding more time will make people less productive due to lack of breaks, rest, etc. Is it obvious where the line is? if so, where? | |
| ▲ | upboundspiral 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-day_workweek "As of July 2022, more than 80 UK companies and organisations are recognised as having permanently implemented a four-day working week" "As 50% of workers claim improved productivity during the period, the Manufacturing Technology Centre (MTC) announced it will permanently provide a four-day workweek to its 820 employees" | |
| ▲ | kennywinker 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | So you’re saying if I work at mcdonalds 60 hours a week i’ll make more than an investment banker working 40 hours a week? Awesome, i’m filling out a job application now! |
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| ▲ | apexalpha 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Imagine a factory line where each worker makes 10 items per hour. In, say, China a worker doing 996 will make 720 items. Te average working hours in the Netherlands are 36 hours or so per week. Making 360 items. As long as there is free trade the Chinese factory will simply outproduce the Dutch one since they utilise their capex better. Obviously European workers can't be reasonably asked to compete in an open market when labour laws, salary, health inspection etc... in China are at a 1920 Dutch level. | | |
| ▲ | sunshowers 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Are you aware of comparative advantage? What matters is opportunity cost, not raw output. (Also, unit labor cost is wage per hour divided by output per hour, so the number of hours worked is not really relevant. In other words, longer hours make workers richer and not their output cheaper.) This was worked out by David Ricardo 200 years ago. You still benefit from trade even if (granting the argument) you are worse at producing everything. | |
| ▲ | tobr 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | So since the math extrapolates linearly and there is apparently no cost, why would anyone settle for anything other than 1680 items per week? | |
| ▲ | kemayo 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You seem to be assuming that productivity scales linearly with time spent working, which doesn't seem to inherently be true. If your factory workers spend twice as long working, it's likely that more widgets will get made. I'm not certain you can generalize too far from that, though. | |
| ▲ | Kim_Bruning 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Right at first approximation you'd certainly think so! At second approximation, the <Dutch> factory in that example might net make a larger number of items per hour because the workers are more alert and concentrated and make less mistakes. So the <dutch> factory and the <chinese> factory might actually be producing the same number of items. Of course then there's more steps to this, and you need to start actually looking at systems and what you're optimizing for etc etc. And, not everything is factories. For instance, if your operator (at eg. Smit or Mammoet) is operating a large crane that's lifting a 100 ton oil platform, maybe you'd prefer them to be wide awake and on the ball, regardless. | |
| ▲ | neaden 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | So this is just not correct.
First off a factory can run 24/7 regardless of the shift length, which is what will determine the total productivity.
Second off it assumes there are no trade offs in terms of more errors or anything else by having longer shifts.
Third off it assumes that factories in different countries are going to be equally effective with each other, instead of different nations/areas within nations specializing in certain areas.
It also ignores the economic benefits that come with having people in your nation having more leisure time, higher education, more time with children, etc. It's a very simplistic model that is also very incorrect. | | |
| ▲ | apexalpha 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | It's not a perfect example of course but the gist that tariffs do and should protect workers is true. Tariffs aren't inherently bad, they're a tool. | | |
| ▲ | peezd 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Protecting Workers, I'd add a couple more; it's not smart to be fully dependent on a trading partner or partners for critical and essential products, such as food, tariffs can help ensure you maintain domestic industry. Also helping to control dumping by an aggressive trade partner to ensure a domestic industry isn't destroyed. | |
| ▲ | Kim_Bruning 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Eh, I think every industrial society has independently arrived at something like 36-44 hours of factory time per week (plus overtime up to a max of something like 55 hours) , simply because that's the actual optimum[1]. While tariffs might work for other stuff [2], I think you're right that they can be a narrowly applicable scalpel, but plausibly you accidentally picked a bad example. [1] Caveats apply. For example more advanced machinery with higher stress may necessitate shorter shifts; while highly motivated creative work might permit longer shifts at times. [2] Adam Smith -for instance- was mostly against tariffs, though he identified certain exceptions such as national defense reasons. |
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| ▲ | edgyquant 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | This is an example of “person pretends to not understand a simple thing thus naming conversation impossible” |
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| ▲ | thisisit 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Protecting workers from that kind of competition seems fair. Tariffs aren't bad in itself. They are just a tool. At the cost of consumers paying for goods/services? Your take is as reductive as the take in the comics. People in a nation working 5 days a week for 8 hours are getting paid less and less over time. Heck lot of people now need double shifts to make ends meet totaling up to 12 hr or even more. They can only afford a Christmas light from the nation mass producing it by working 6 days a week, 12 hr shift. And lets not pretend this was only about protecting workers. There were multiple agendas: 1. Bring back jobs 2. Remove trade barriers between countries 3. Make US rich by collecting huge amount of tariffs All three can't be true at the same time. If jobs are brought back then you aren't going to collect huge amount of tariffs because nothing is being produced outside. If trade barriers are removed then that comes at a cost of slashing tariffs so you can't really collect huge amount of tariffs. The foolish reasoning highlighted in the comics is the reason there is so much trade war. |
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| ▲ | Kim_Bruning 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Just as a note: if you work 6x12 shifts, you're actually working less efficiently, because you'll be regularly fatigued, make more mistakes, need more rework, etc etc. You might end up with the same net yield as if you'd done 3x6 hour shifts. (edit: And only if you don't fall asleep at the controls and destroy the factory first. 12 hour shifts are brutal. At least one place I know bans you the next day if you exceed 11h, for your own protection if nothing else) (edit2: This was documented in the 1st world war when munitions factories that tried to ramp up by increasing shift durations past a certain point ended up hardly improving productivity, but did increase accident and sickness rates to the point that it was starting to hurt the war effort. ) |
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| ▲ | throw0101d 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > This is a pretty reductive take. Yes, because it's a one-panel comic. |
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| ▲ | fg137 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| That is a ... pretty reductive take as well. |
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| ▲ | Hammershaft 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Have you ever heard of comparative advantage? |
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| ▲ | eigenspace 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I don't think the comic is claiming that all tariffs in any context are bad, that would indeed be a reductive, bad take. Given the timing and the metaphor of blood being sent to and from a limb, this is almost surely a reference to the tariff threats against Canada. |
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| ▲ | apexalpha 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | Oh this is a good point. I was not aware of new developments with US-Canada today, that makes the more-than-normal stingy reactions expected. Sorry, I'm European and can't keep up with the erratic US Gov. I read a summary at the end of the week. | | |
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| ▲ | edgyquant 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Unfortunately in our hyper partisan, sound bite, climate you can’t discuss the trade offs of tax policies anymore you either support the party line or you’re the enemy. |
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| ▲ | apexalpha 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I am European... Tariffs are completely normal here we protect our workers all the time. It seems I've 'stung the wasps nest' on HN by not denouncing them outright it seems. | | |
| ▲ | MattCruikshank 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | How many 100% tariffs do you have on every good from an entire country? A scalpel is one thing. Dynamite is something else. | | |
| ▲ | edgyquant 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Context is important. 100% tariffs on Canada is stupid, 100% tariffs on China because we don’t want any industry dependent on a major military adversary is something worth discussing even if the answer is to not do that in the end | |
| ▲ | apexalpha 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I was not aware this comic was a reation to new developments for US-CAN. I thought it was just a generic take on tarrifs and responded accordingly. I agree the current US strategy behind tariffs is pretty retarded. Good example of fools trying to use a powerful tool. | | |
| ▲ | MattCruikshank 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yeah, I think you've got it. Agreeing with you and continuing my thought: If I had to guess at the comic author's intention... It's commentary that the logic is flawed. If this is why you're doing tariffs, you're not using them correctly. Not that tariffs should never be used. |
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| ▲ | MattCruikshank 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It would certainly help if people wouldn't believe flat-out lies. Like, "other countries pay the tariffs." No. They don't. How can we have nuanced conversation about the trade-offs, if the leader of one political party blatantly lies about a fundamental detail of how tariffs work? 600% reduction in the price of drugs? We can't even start a discussion with people who believe this. At all. They reject any information, even their own knowledge of how numbers work. | | |
| ▲ | edgyquant 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I have never met anyone who thought other countries paid the tariffs. Im sure they exist but this seems more like something retractors say to make themselves feel smarter than people in support of tariffs. People who care at all about tariffs tend to know how they work. The president says a lot of really stupid things and those stupid things are highlighted, but that’s not indicative of the average and one of the main talking points about tariffs is that they increase costs in order to incentivize local suppliers | |
| ▲ | phaedryx 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I wish we would call them "taxes on imports" instead to reflect what is actually happening. | | |
| ▲ | MattCruikshank 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Merriam-Webster: "The meaning of TARIFF is a schedule of duties imposed by a government on imported or in some countries exported goods." Apparently the dictionary is "woke." Wikipedia: "A tariff, or import tax, is a duty imposed by a national government, customs territory, or supranational union on imports of goods and is paid by the importer." Oxford Economics: "Tariffs are taxes imposed by a government on goods and services imported from other countries." | |
| ▲ | edgyquant 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | 100% agree |
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| ▲ | cdrnsf 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| My dad worked 12 hour shifts for decades (4 days on, 4 days off). Anyone working 72 hours a week isn't going to last long. |
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| ▲ | simlevesque 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| I never realized I've been working this much. |