Completely disagree (except the Sonnet bit, yes, it's degrading).

"then the cost of executing that plan is a just one turn more of cached tokens, and minimal time."

This is just not true at all. There's a huge gap between 'figured out the hard stuff' and 'rock solid'.

Dependencies, integration, corner cases, docs, testing, unforeseen issues, a lot of back and forth auditing making sure things are really tight.

Audits get diminishing marginal returns, but you have to do them until they don't find anything, and that's usually a few cycles.

So aside from the fact there is 'a lot of labour' - part of the plan (maybe the most important part) is documenting most of the trip-up scenarios. If you ran an experiment or two in the background your agent will 'discover' a few key odd things, you back those into the plan.

I'm 100% certain that this pattern works because I (and others) use it very successfully.

Hint: save your main context by using sub-agents to do grunt work - even in impl phase - farm out anything directly implementable without a ton of background.

Also - make a skill so your Claude can call Codex and visa versa and maintain long-running sub agents of 'the other kind'.

An Opus with 1M context window executing on a 'plan' that a Codex 'sub-agent' is executing on - ad a different Opus sug-agent is auditing hard ... that 1M token window is dramatically extended to 'many millions of tokens'.

That can work within Anthropic/Codex Pro plans.

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criley2 19 hours ago | parent [-]

I'm sorry, but just because you achieve results you consider acceptable with this method doesn't mean everyone does.

I don't work where we can ship slop. I don't work where PRs can be merged based on what the agents say. I work where a human has to read and approve and own every single line of code. I work where the stakes are actually high, so the cost of not using the best tools in terms of human time are big. A single turn around in a PR costs more in human time than the difference between deepseek and fable in API costs.

So, when you admit "There's a huge gap between 'figured out the hard stuff' and 'rock solid'." but then claim that the cheapest/dumbest agent in your arsenal is your go-to for "rock solid", I have to question the quality of your results.

Personally, "using plan mode" is a very 2025 way of using these tools, and I wouldn't be surprised to see "plan mode" be removed from codex/claude code/et al.

Realistically, I'm using the best models to think about a domain and problem (Fable High+), and I'm using a cheap daily driver with an advisor pattern (Opus High + Fable) to iterate through POCs, and I'm using human review to guide design. None of that is "plan mode", it's actual engineering. Then we decompose the solution, we stack it, and we use only really strong agents to build, review and refine.

This obsession with cheap agents leads to low quality outcomes. "Rock solid" deserves the best tools, and the "plan" will never be good enough. I'm going to be sending fable xhigh and sol 56 xhigh et al at it in adversarial review, why the heck am I cheaping out on the actual implementation?

And finally: my time costs way more than any of this. Cheaper models are slower overall and when combined with re-work time, are dramatically slower. I'm costing my company hundreds in my time to save a few bucks on the API bills. Nonsense!

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bluegatty 19 hours ago | parent [-]

Yours was the casual dismissal; and based on a misunderstanding of what can be achieved.

Based your arbitrary dismissal and unwillingness to even try to consider new patterns with which you may be unfamiliar - it may be difficult to communicate with you.

I have the advantage of 'certainty' because I have the evidence over many projects / team members.

We ship near perfect code.

In addition to the hints above, we do this at least in part by explicitly anchoring and testing requirements into several aspects of the code, and ensuring that known 'weak spots' are managed.

The 'planning process' ensures the requirements are mechanically anchored and integrated into tests, that 'proportional' documentation is applied, and that module, library and project level documentation is perfect (and mechanically validated where possible), which FYI is what solves most of 'context problems'. (That's another hint, if you have extremely good docs, you don't need to load vast amounts of code).

Yes - I hear you that 'time matters' and that 'the stakes are high' - consider that you may be talking to people where the stakes are just as high, or higher - but more specifically, this is not about 'saving tokens' or cost so much as it is using the right level of model for the task.

Use the best models for background research and planning, use mediocre models for execution, and mid-high for auditing - in other words 'use the right model for the right work' - and in a certain methodology, dumber models are appropriate.

FYI this saves you the ugly 'Fable' problem which many are encountering as it burns though Max plans. Don't 'automate' with Fable, it's the wrong model for that.

I could go on, but consider that there are actually ways of organizing projects and orchestration that work well.

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