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foxyv a day ago

I think the idea is that tariffs cut both ways. They increase prices for foreign goods as well as reduce demand for imports causing job losses in the exporting country. The original tariffs increase prices and the retaliatory tariffs reduce demand for American products causing job loss.

ericmay a day ago | parent | next [-]

Yes but since Canada is also initiating new tariffs (they've had existing ones for specific products and industries already) so anything said here applies to Canada as well.

For example Canadian tariffs increase prices and their retaliatory tariffs also reduce demand for Canadian products leading to job losses.

davidw a day ago | parent | next [-]

They are willing to bear some pain in order to hit back at the US administration. And they're pretty united - Doug Ford for instance is not on the same team as Mark Carney - but has been very vocal about striking back.

It's really a singular achievement to piss off such a good neighbor so badly.

ncphillips a day ago | parent | next [-]

People I know change their meal plans if the only options are US products.

epolanski a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

And don't forget the Greenland threats, those for us Europeans, and in European foreign affairs are a line of non return.

Other administrations will not be able to repair the damage, because what was exposed really is that the US system allows for each administration to destroy and 180 whatever the previous one did.

ericmay a day ago | parent [-]

They can be repaired - but if you think they can't be, then the US should act accordingly which would mean yea go ahead and take over Greenland, withdraw forces from Europe, &c. because as you say they can't be fixed so we might as well do whatever we think we want or need to do - that's the chain of reasoning that this theory of unrepairable relations sends us down.

But we've had challenges and issues before. The US has tried to obtain Greenland in the past. There are plenty of examples of such things throughout history ranging from the Suez Crises, to French withdrawal from NATO, to, well, 2 World Wars caused by Europe, and more and all was forgiven, if not forgotten.

We sometimes think that things in the moment are perhaps more important than they are. The news wants us to believe the world is ending to get clicks. Europe still lets Russian tourists in and houses Russian billionaires and their families despite this existential threat from Russia, as an example.

dinfinity a day ago | parent | next [-]

> They can be repaired - but if you think they can't be, then the US should act accordingly which would mean yea go ahead and take over Greenland, withdraw forces from Europe, &c. because as you say they can't be fixed so we might as well do whatever we think we want or need to do

That is a very black and white view of the world. There is actually a very large area between acting as a close ally and acting as an imperialistic adversary.

GP is saying that the close ally bit is out the door. I think we can become close allies again if the situation requires it, but definitely won't if it does not. The USA has proven to be highly volatile, highly unreliable, and highly unreasonable.

> 2 World Wars caused by Europe, and more and all was forgiven, if not forgotten.

With all due respect, but claiming USA victimhood in the World Wars at the hands of "Europe" is a pretty fucked up and incorrect way of framing this bit of history. Pearl Harbor wasn't exactly the doing of the Belgians.

ericmay a day ago | parent [-]

> That is a very black and white view of the world.

> The USA has proven to be highly volatile, highly unreliable, and highly unreasonable.

Right, black and white haha. Well if we are highly volatile, highly unreliable, and highly unreasonable why would we do anything besides whatever we decide to do? Can’t trust us, can’t reason with us, and can’t rely on us. In that case, who gives a shit about alliances with Europe?

> With all due respect, but claiming USA victimhood in the World Wars at the hands of "Europe" is a pretty fucked up and incorrect way of framing this bit of history. Pearl Harbor wasn't exactly the doing of the Belgians.

European wars started by Europeans. The Japanese may well have bombed Pearl Harbor anyway (don’t forget, the US alongside anglosphere allies liberated Western Europe at the same time Japan was being fought) but that war takes on a whole different character if simultaneously all the European powers weren’t initiating another round of their petulant and childish wars.

dinfinity 17 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> Right, black and white haha. Well if we are highly volatile, highly unreliable, and highly unreasonable why would we do anything besides whatever we decide to do? Can’t trust us, can’t reason with us, and can’t rely on us. In that case, who gives a shit about alliances with Europe?

So, what's the plan? The USA imperialistically conquers land of former allies and rules the world forever with force? All countries are forced to trade with the USA? Or will the USA just operate as an island? How is this gonna work?

I don't think you realize how bad things have already gotten. We're not at the level of Europeans or Canadians burning American flags and chanting "death to America" in the street yet, but we are definitely speedrunning towards that. According to polling a large majority of the countries in the world now see the USA as the biggest threat to world peace [0]. A lot of people have also come to simply really, really hate (most) Americans. The complacency and impotence in stopping the utter madness and stupidity (or worse, doubling down on it) are damning. I wish it were different.

[0] https://www.niradata.com/global-pulse-2026 ("Global threat" section)

ericmay 13 hours ago | parent [-]

shrug

If people feel that way then there’s no reason to do anything besides whatever we want. We are untrustworthy, unreliable, highly volatile (anything else we should add?) and every Canadian/European is proudly chanting death to America. At that point, who cares?

It reminds me of those abusive relationships where some girl (EU/Canada) hates the boyfriend (America) but keeps coming back to him despite all these flaws. You’re untrustworthy! You’re bad! And then you just keep hanging around because deep down you know you need us. That’s why you have to keep saying the same thing over and over again - you need us and want us to act in a way that best suits your interests.

dinfinity 12 hours ago | parent [-]

What an incredible way to miss the points and what an incredible bit of logic.

"Sure, I am an abusive asshole. But you need me, so I'm going to continue to be an abusive asshole. Why wouldn't I? You need me."

At this point I'm just going to assume you're trolling. Well done, I guess.

ericmay 11 hours ago | parent [-]

> At this point I'm just going to assume you're trolling. Well done, I guess.

Every accusation is a confession.

> "Sure, I am an abusive asshole. But you need me, so I'm going to continue to be an abusive asshole. Why wouldn't I? You need me."

Well, then why are, idk what to call some folks, I guess anti-American pro-EU? still trying to convince us of anything?

It's like you keep repeating "we don't trust you", "we don't like this or that", "the relationship will never be the same"! Ok got it, we've moved on and we're flying solo now, why haven't you moved on?

dinfinity 11 hours ago | parent [-]

> Every accusation is a confession.

That doesn't make sense. Are you accusing me of trolling? Based on what?

> Well, then why are, idk what to call some folks, I guess anti-American pro-EU? still trying to convince us of anything?

The option "the USA stops being an abusive asshole" is really not on your radar, is it?

Because that would be the obvious and best way out of the current situation, like in the abusive relationship analogy you so aptly described. You do realize in that scenario the boyfriend is unequivocally the bad guy, right?

> Ok got it, we've moved on and we're flying solo now

The USA hasn't "moved on" and is not "flying solo". It is being petty, reneging on previously made agreements and actively significantly hurting and threatening to hurt the other parties in their (ex-)relationships constantly. It's like a couple with kids where one of the parents suddenly starts behaving like the biggest piece of shit on earth. Even after the divorce that is going to be a massive shit show for all parties involved.

If the USA wouldn't be dragging the rest of the world down with it, we wouldn't care. But you are. Spectacularly and moronically badly.

ericmay 11 hours ago | parent [-]

> That doesn't make sense. Are you accusing me of trolling? Based on what?

I'm not accusing you of anything, but if you are going to accuse me of trolling then I'll assume you are admitting to trolling instead.

> The option "the USA stops being an abusive asshole" is really not on your radar, is it?

It's not - that's why my analogy made sense. We're abusive, relationships unrepairable, never to be trusted again, highly volatile, you name it. You implicitly or explicitly (and others) have made these claims, not me. I think we can absolutely still work together, and there is a lot of room to repair things and frankly they're not as bad as the internet people make them out to be.

But if all you are going to do is sit there and repeat these feel-good phrases: "can't trust, can't redeem, highly volatile, &c" then ok sure yea we're all those things and there's no interest in talking or trying to repair anything because you've already declared it's over.

dinfinity 11 hours ago | parent [-]

The USA hasn't "moved on" and is not "flying solo". It is being petty, reneging on previously made agreements and actively significantly hurting and threatening to hurt the other parties in their (ex-)relationships constantly. It's like a couple with kids where one of the parents suddenly starts behaving like the biggest piece of shit on earth. Even after the divorce that is going to be a massive shit show for all parties involved.

If the USA wouldn't be dragging the rest of the world down with it, we wouldn't care. But you are. Spectacularly and moronically badly.

ericmay 9 hours ago | parent [-]

How have we not moved on? I don't understand. You and online Europeans have said we're all these really bad things, no hope in repairing the damage, &c. so we have to be moved on now that we're no longer together. Maybe Europe hasn't gotten over it? I'm not sure. The US has though - we're flying solo and moving on when it comes to trade.

If someone said all of those things to you, allegedly wanted nothing to do with you, can't trust you, you're horrible, you're a destabilizing force - what exactly would you think the relationship is like? It's impossible to suggest that we haven't moved on unless you're suggesting Europe hasn't moved on and that these allegations of irreparability are just sensationalized bullshit (they are).

dinfinity 9 hours ago | parent [-]

It is being petty, reneging on previously made agreements and actively significantly hurting and threatening to hurt the other parties in their (ex-)relationships constantly.

ericmay 9 hours ago | parent [-]

Ok so I'm right, these are former relationships, can't be trusted, we've moved on, etc. ?

dinfinity 8 hours ago | parent [-]

Has your ex "moved on" if they regularly threaten to steal your shit, harass you, vandalize your neighborhood and your car?

Don't feign innocence. You're not fooling anybody. It is so very obviously not "just lil guy USA chillin' in the corner minding their business and not bothering anybody".

ericmay 8 hours ago | parent [-]

Idk, my ex (the EU) keeps coming around asking me for stuff, bothering me, then getting mad when I decide what kind of trade policy I want to have as is my right to decide.

But either way, the relationship is irreparable, it's all over, all that stuff so the EU and the online EU folks should just accept the new status quo and stop complaining.

I think this comparison has run its course anyway. At the end of the day these relationships are repairable and will be repaired and changed if we all decide to, and no amount of sensationalized doomsaying from people on the Internet will affect that. Trump will be gone, we'll elect some Democrat, they'll do some things, France might elect Marine LePenn, the'll do something, and on and on it goes.

marcus_holmes a day ago | parent | prev [-]

> don’t forget, the US alongside anglosphere allies liberated Western Europe at the same time Japan was being fought

Let's not forget the Soviet Union, who did most of the actual heavy lifting of liberating Western Europe. If D-Day had never happened, the Soviets would have rolled right through Germany and then occupied France and the low countries. The Nazis would still have lost, but all of continental Europe would have been behind the iron curtain for the Cold War.

The anglosphere allies didn't defeat Germany so much as stop the Soviets from occupying Western Europe.

wahern a day ago | parent [-]

> "If the United States had not helped us, we would not have won the war. One-on-one against Hitler's Germany, we would not have withstood its onslaught and would have lost the war. No one talks about this officially, and Stalin never, I think, left any written traces of his opinion, but I can say that he expressed this view l several times in conversations with me."

> - Nikita Khrushchev, political commissar overseeing Red Army generals during the Battle of Stalingrad and later the leader of the Soviet Union, as written in his memoirs.

> "People say that the allies didn't help us. But it cannot be denied that the Americans sent us materiel without which we could not have formed our reserves or continued the war. The Americans provided vital explosives and gunpowder. And how much steel! Could we really have set up the production of our tanks without American steel? And now they are saying that we had plenty of everything on our own."

> - Georgy Zhukov, Marshal of the Soviet Union and the Conqueror of Berlin (AKA the guy who got Hitler to blow his final thoughts out all over a wall), as overheard by a KGB monitoring device in 1963.

@Sensei_of_Philosophy, Reddit, https://www.reddit.com/r/HistoryWhatIf/s/z7gcaTaxy9

defrost 21 hours ago | parent | next [-]

In addition, the UK and loose European merchant fleets repeatedly ran the gauntlet of German Navy, ice, and bad seas to deliver that material - so much so that

World War Two: Russian medals for last Arctic Convoys veterans - https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-51726647

marcus_holmes 19 hours ago | parent [-]

yeah, they were heroes and I don't think I could have done that in the face of those odds.

marcus_holmes 19 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

fair points, but it still doesn't add up to "the USA beat Germany" or even "the anglosphere beat Germany". The Soviets beat Germany and we helped.

ericmay 13 hours ago | parent [-]

I wrote that the Anglosphere liberated Western Europe, I didn’t write that the USA beat Germany nor did I write that the Anglosphere beat Germany. I chose those words carefully precisely because to say “they beat Germany” while true in some ways would be misleading and would discredit the Soviet’s contributions.

With that being said, the Soviets allied with Germany to help kick this whole thing off, so while yea maybe they get credit for not losing to Germany they also reaped what they sowed.

ben_w 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> They can be repaired - but if you think they can't be, then the US should act accordingly which would mean yea go ahead and take over Greenland, withdraw forces from Europe, &c. because as you say they can't be fixed so we might as well do whatever we think we want or need to do - that's the chain of reasoning that this theory of unrepairable relations sends us down.

Irreparable doesn't make it a good idea to increase the damage, in much the same way that a company losing their trademark ("irreparable harm") can have an even worse time if all their banks suddenly refuse to do business with them.

The US taking Greenland by force means either NATO ends, or it collectively is at war with the USA, either outcome within a week or less. Similar but with different timelines for the entire EU due to Article 42(7), even though not all EU member states are in NATO and vice versa. It means maximally escalating trade prohibition (which doesn't mean everything from day 0) rather than simply the absence of deals leading to tariffs.

I will note with Suez, the British and French were humiliated, and by some the crisis is considered to be the end of the British empire. The British are not exactly beloved world-wide, despite what British newspapers will write about all the asylum seekers.

And the French didn't fully withdraw from NATO, but from the US-led unified command and the control of NATO's nuclear arsenal, to approximately quote the Wikipedia page.

Neither world war worked out well for those involved; for the British it was two Pyrrhic victories in a lifetime, for Germany it was humiliation and hyperinflation the first time around and getting quartered the second time around with active economic suppression only ending because of a proxy conflict of brain drain across what became the Iron Curtain. In both wars, Germany was seen as villainous for the next generation. The relative economic damage in Europe is what allowed the USA to become a superpower, and it only really supported Europe as a foil against Communism.

Or just look at how much the borders changed going from pre-WW1 to post-WW2.

ncphillips a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

They can be repaired but it is going to require a very significant amount of work on one side of the border in particular.

SpicyLemonZest a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

We're talking about different things. The French withdrawal from NATO unified command is a good example of what it means to say relationships can't just be repaired; it took 43 years to bring them back!

It's true that the news can overstate just how much things have changed. The US and Canada remain major trade partners and strong allies, with NORAD currently in the middle of a week-long joint exercise, and it's unlikely that's going to change. But you should not expect a return to friendly trade relations in 2029.

ericmay a day ago | parent [-]

But they can be repaired. The OP claimed:

> Other administrations will not be able to repair the damage

So if you disagree with them you should reply to them and let them know the damage can be repaired.

SpicyLemonZest a day ago | parent [-]

Again, we're talking about different things. What the OP understands "repair the damage" to mean, which I know because I've seen the expectation myself in the wild, is that the next administration can restore the 2024 status quo by just going on a really compelling apology tour. I don't think that's likely; we're still going to see Canadians boycotting random consumer goods, Europeans demanding that everyone should move off American tech ASAP, and countries in general being a lot less willing to negotiate for trade agreements the Americans can't credibly promise to keep.

ericmay 13 hours ago | parent [-]

Their lack of specificity does not invalidate my comment.

> and countries in general being a lot less willing to negotiate for trade agreements the Americans can't credibly promise to keep.

We have a lot of trade deals and have created new ones while Trump has been in office. Countries have willingly negotiated with us and us with them. What you are writing is ideological wishful thinking, not what is reflected in reality.

ben_w 12 hours ago | parent [-]

> We have a lot of trade deals and have created new ones while Trump has been in office. Countries have willingly negotiated with us and us with them. What you are writing is ideological wishful thinking, not what is reflected in reality.

Those trade deals aren't worth the paper they're written on while Trump is around. Everybody is aware of this, the only difference is that Trump seems to think he's the only one who knows.

ericmay 12 hours ago | parent [-]

> Those trade deals aren't worth the paper they're written on while Trump is around. Everybody is aware of this, the only difference is that Trump seems to think he's the only one who knows.

But they are still real trade deals, the rules are still followed, &c.

Your personal distaste for Donald Trump (I believe he belongs in jail and didn't vote for him either time) doesn't change that fact.

rjrjrjrj 11 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The US isn't even following its own rules. The "liberation day" tariffs were illegal.

ben_w 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> But they are still real trade deals, the rules are still followed, &c.

No, that's the point, they're not.

> Your personal distaste for Donald Trump (I believe he belongs in jail and didn't vote for him either time) doesn't change that fact.

Same in reverse. He could be everyone's favourite uncle and it would still be rendering the US's word worthless.

Me, I'm not eligible to vote for him, what with having repeatedly turned down opportunities to move to the USA, the most recent occasion of which having been in 2016 specifically due to him having won.

ericmay 11 hours ago | parent [-]

> No, that's the point, they're not.

Do you want me to quote formal trade agreements that were made or are you able to just do a Google search yourself and see?

> Same in reverse. He could be everyone's favourite uncle and it would still be rendering the US's word worthless.

Ok our word is worthless and all that stuff so who cares then what anyone in Europe or whatever thinks.

Oh well so sad we should withdraw from NATO immediately, send troops back to the US, and remove sanctions on Russia so we can bring down gas prices - who cares what Europe thinks since our word is worthless and all.

Guess we'll just have to keep doing whatever we're doing.

ben_w 10 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> Do you want me to quote formal trade agreements that were made or are you able to just do a Google search yourself and see?

I wrote "Those trade deals aren't worth the paper they're written on", you seem to be responding as if I wrote "nonexistent".

> Oh well so sad we should withdraw from NATO immediately, send troops back to the US, and remove sanctions on Russia so we can bring down gas prices - who cares what Europe thinks since our word is worthless and all.

Those troops are in Europe for your benefit, more than ours. Those bases are a big part of how the USA gets to do force projection.

Can you really not see the cost to yourself? Your reaction is like committing suicide after getting caught cheating. You're not coming back from cheating, but if you really, genuinely, seriously, cannot see how much worse it can get… wow, things are going to get so much worse.

ericmay 10 hours ago | parent [-]

> I wrote "Those trade deals aren't worth the paper they're written on", you seem to be responding as if I wrote "nonexistent".

That's just your opinion though. I say they're worth the paper they're written on, and other countries have agreed to them and are following them. That's my opinion, and the opinion of the countries who have signed and are following trade deals.

So it's like, me, America, the countries we've done trade deals with

and then there's you who disagree with all of us.

> Those troops are in Europe for your benefit, more than ours. Those bases are how you get to do force projection.

This is cope. Certainly those bases do benefit the United States, but it's not as lopsided as you are making it out to be. If the US turned to be more isolationist (not something I advocate really) we wouldn't need those bases to, say, project power in the Middle East or provide a backstop to Europe due to Russia. And we know this is true because when the United States under Trump has threatened or started to remove troops, the NATO alliance and European leaders either treaded carefully, or made overtures to keep the troops/bases operational in Europe. I don't know why people keep parroting these talking points - they really don't make a lot of sense.

Like if you are going to claim those bases are just there for our benefit, then why do you care if we remove them? Leave us alone and let us make our own choices.

> Can you really not see the cost to yourself? Your reaction is like committing suicide after getting caught cheating. You're not coming back from cheating, but if you really, genuinely, seriously, cannot see how much worse it can get… wow.

Sure, I see the cost. The degradation of these relationships is not something I advocate for. But if you're saying everything is done and over, untrustworthy, &c. then sure it's over - it's just like you said and want. So why do you keep trying?

rjrjrjrj 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> Do you want me to quote formal trade agreements that were made or are you able to just do a Google search yourself and see?

Are there any actual formal trade agreements, ratified by Congress (like CUSMA)?

Most of them seem to be hand-wavy executive actions, full of caveats and outs, sitting upon the unstable legal foundation of illegal tariffs, dubious legal theories, and front-running the courts. Signed by an executive with a long history of dishonesty, reneging on deals, and criminality.

ericmay 9 hours ago | parent [-]

> Most of them seem to be hand-wavy executive actions, full of caveats and outs, sitting upon the unstable legal foundation of illegal tariffs, dubious legal theories, and front-running the courts. Signed by an executive with a long history of dishonesty, reneging on deals, and criminality.

Fair but then that criticism goes back pretty far and is bipartisan. I don't think it's fair to single Trump out for this. Congress (Republicans and Democrats both) have been abdicating their responsibility and deferring to the courts or the Executive for over 20 years and it gets worse every year.

rjrjrjrj 8 hours ago | parent [-]

Of course it is fair to single out Trump. No other president has pursued this strategy. In the case of Canada, there was the original free trade agreement (Reagan), NAFTA (Bush I/Clinton), and even CUSMA (Trump I). All approved by Congress.

They didn't implement illegal tariffs, make up fake emergencies (eg fentanyl across the northern border), and do the 51st state/Governor Trudeau stuff.

More broadly, the "he is just doing what his predecessors did" argument that Trump water carriers like to make is a Lake Ontario-sized false equivalence.

ericmay 8 hours ago | parent [-]

> Are there any actual formal trade agreements, ratified by Congress (like CUSMA)?

> In the case of Canada, there was the original free trade agreement (Reagan), NAFTA (Bush I/Clinton), and even CUSMA (Trump I). All approved by Congress.

Why bother asking me questions like this if you know the answer?

The legality of the tariffs is questionable but just calling them illegal as though it's a moral judgement I cast out as nonsense and not worthy of discussion.

None of these points detract from what I wrote which is that Congress under both Republicans and Democrats have continued to be dysfunctional and delegate more and more of their responsibility to the Executive and Judicial branches.

rjrjrjrj 7 hours ago | parent [-]

> Why bother asking me questions like this if you know the answer?

I know the history of the Canadian treaties. I don't know the status of all the other various frameworks and intents and executive orders with other countries that have been tweeted about, agreed to and then un-agreed to, etc. Maybe I missed some that Congress approved, but they mostly seem to be like peace agreements with Iran.

> The legality of the tariffs is questionable but just calling them illegal as though it's a moral judgement I cast out as nonsense and not worthy of discussion.

The more recent ones are questionable. The Supreme Court ruled the "liberation day" tariffs illegal. That's why they're being refunded.

> None of these points detract from what I wrote which is that Congress under both Republicans and Democrats have continued to be dysfunctional and delegate more and more of their responsibility to the Executive and Judicial branches.

Under this administration, it is a LOT more. A LOT LOT more.

ericmay 7 hours ago | parent [-]

> I don't know the status of all the other various frameworks and intents and executive orders with other countries

Then why did you assert claims without knowledge about the underlying facts? Delete Twitter, get off social media, and you'll be much better informed.

> They seem to be like peace agreements with Iran.

I'm not sure that's a good comparison because the Iranians never had any intention of an agreement. Even today hardliners and the IRGC have internal fighting with other members of the Iranian government as to what to do about the US closing the Strait on them. Hard to negotiate when the party you are negotiating with either doesn't want to negotiate or can't agree on whatever their talking points are.

> Under this administration, it is a LOT more. A LOT LOT more.

Maybe but I don't think the volume makes a significant difference. It's just further evidence of the dysfunction of Congress and it'll just get worse once the Republicans deservedly get blown out in the midterm elections.

rjrjrjrj 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Assert claims? I know a lot of the deals are vague/incomplete executive directives; not treaties ratified by congress. But I don't know about all of them - maybe Congress approved a deal with the penguins that Trump tariffed? So I asked you a question (which you didn't answer).

Don't take the comparison with Iran too literally; it was a gibe about yet another in an endless line of Trump deals (political, business, personal) that didn't stick.

ericmay 5 hours ago | parent [-]

> Don't take the comparison with Iran too literally; it was a gibe about yet another in an endless line of Trump deals (political, business, personal) that didn't stick.

Sure but you used the comparison so I did want to make sure that if we were taking a serious tone we have to realize they aren't honest negotiators anyway and there's a lot of in-fighting.

> I know a lot of the deals are vague/incomplete executive directives; not treaties ratified by congress.

How do you know that? What do you mean by an incomplete executive directive? Are you sure that all trade deals or modifications of such deals must go through Congress? How familiar are you with the US legislative system?

> So I asked you a question (which you didn't answer).

Was it a rhetorical question or are you genuinely asking? You already answered your question by pointing out a few different deals. That's why I'm a little confused. I addressed your question, even if I didn't answer it... because you answered it!! lol

Separately does it matter? My point was that Congress has abdicated this responsibility to the Executive and Judicial branches and this has gone on for decades and only gotten worse over time. The lack of Congressional approval for trade deals would just reinforce the point I am making.

rjrjrjrj 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Agreements approved by Congress are more politically and legally durable than something simply signed by the executive. Especially when the executive is as dishonest and capricious as this one is.

CUSMA was approved by Congress in the middle of Trump's second term. In this area at least, they haven't been abdicating for decades.

Also, seems primary blame for Trump's illegal tariffs should lie with... Trump?

epolanski a day ago | parent | prev [-]

The news isn't threatening allies, offending/mocking them, charging tariffs, subverting the very institutions that have been built together. A human in charge is.

In any case, they cannot be repaired without a change in the US political system to a representative and stable (in foreign policy) democracy.

As long as the system allows for complete 180 degree turns every 4 years making any arrangement bears little value.

Business and friendship is built on long term horizons of stability. If that's not possible, we can only adapt.

ericmay a day ago | parent [-]

> The news isn't threatening allies, offending/mocking them, charging tariffs, subverting the very institutions that have been built together. A human in charge is.

No but they're getting you to click on every article where Trump is SLAMMED and Marcon is TOASTED and Canada RETALIATES or whatever.

> As long as the system allows for complete 180 degree turns every 4 years making any arrangement bears little value.

That's not true and nobody has ever really treated it as such. The entire history of the United States has pretty much operated by making changes every 4 years. I'm not sure the US has really executed 180 degree turns, but even so sometimes it's necessary to make abrupt changes because acting too slowly could be very dangerous. For whatever it's worth I'd hate to see Donald Trump elected to, idk, some 20-year term as president in the name of not making changes every 4 years.

Aside from that, this cuts both ways. You can't throw everything away after decades of helpful, and peaceful cooperation just because of 8 out of 12 years being annoying. There is no stability in that - it's just "agree with me or I go away" which isn't good for long-term relationships.

> In any case, they cannot be repaired without a change in the US political system to a representative and stable (in foreign policy) democracy.

To be clear we operate a representative and stable democracy in the United States. Other countries may not like our actions, but suggesting that US action == destabilization implies that any action that any entity takes is also destabilizing. Things don't happen in a vacuum.

bdangubic a day ago | parent | next [-]

> To be clear we operate a representative and stable democracy in the United States.

We most certainly do not, the system is just nicely setup to make us believe that this is the case. In 2020 for instance, we were given an amazing choice to choose between a senile grandpa and the most vile and corrupt human being ever to walk the earth. all us elections boil down to this, the establishment decides who their 'best one' is at any given time and you get to choose A vs. B. there isn't a single other country on the planet where this is the case that calls itself a democracy. it is one step removed from china and russia, we just get one more choice than they do :)

ericmay a day ago | parent [-]

Well, in that case I’d say our version of Democracy is just the better one and European democracies are just one step away from Russia/China and are very unstable and unrepresented in comparison to the US because of the EU.

We have only 720 members of the EU parliament representing over 600 million people. In the US we have more people representing fewer people, ergo we are more representative.

How is the president of the EU chosen? Is it a direct election across all citizens of the EU?

Don’t mistake gigantic bureaucracies for representative democracy.

bdangubic 14 hours ago | parent [-]

EU is not a country :)

ericmay 13 hours ago | parent [-]

I didn’t claim that it was n_n

epolanski a day ago | parent | prev [-]

> To be clear we operate a representative and stable democracy in the United States.

It's not a representative democracy.

A representative democracy is one where all voters are represented in a branch of government.

The US system is exactly the opposite. It's a winner-takes-all democracy. At all levels. And worse, the executive represents only the half that voted him, the other half don't exist.

There's many other flaws in presidential and semi presidential republics but they are beyond the topic of representative democracies.

And no, the US is clearly not stable on foreign politics.

> You can't throw everything away after decades of helpful, and peaceful cooperation just because of 8 out of 12 years being annoying.

It's a decision that's been made in Washington to revert decades of successful cooperation. We're merely reacting to the new reality.

> That's not true and nobody has ever really treated it as such.

That's a very US-centric way of looking at this. American exceptionalism is cultural, it's not tied to a specific administration.

> I'm not sure the US has really executed 180 degree turns, but even so sometimes it's necessary to make abrupt changes because acting too slowly could be very dangerous.

You don't build international and economic relations with abrupt changes.

Business and diplomatic relations require predictability, stability, trust.

Also, be careful thinking that "acting slowly" is the worst that can happen in a mature democracy.

Giving individuals the capability of acting fast and with little limits might be the most dangerous one. Each presidential republic is merely waiting for the right Erdogan, Trump or Putin to break it.

I'd rather keep our slow and inefficient European democracies where prime ministers have to win the trust of the parliament and their own party every single day with all the bad that comes with it, if the alternatives are what I see around the world.

ericmay a day ago | parent [-]

> It's not a representative democracy. It's a winner-takes-all one. In US the executive is one single individual representing only those who voted him. Sometimes it's even a minority vote like in Trump #1.

The US is literally a representative democracy as a matter of fact and definition. Winner-take-all in contested elections does not make the US not a representative democracy.

> And no, the US is clearly not stable on foreign politics

No country is then.

> It's a decision that's been made in Washington to revert decades of successful cooperation. We're merely reacting to the reality.

Ok then we should just do whatever we want and who cares about alliances or whatever. Withdraw troops, normalize trade relations with Russia, take over Greenland, whatever. All the decades of successful cooperation are nearby reverted and so we can now take different actions with that in mind.

> That's not how you build stable relations, trust and business.

In that case any time a country or bloc takers abruptly actions they now no longer are building stable relations, trust, and business. For example if the EU takes an abrupt action we can make this same claim.

> Also, I really don't agree with your view of the "acting slowly".

What is my view that you disagree with?

> We don't need big changes, but small compounding ones.

Maybe. Sometimes you need big changes. Like climate change. We need to make big changes (at least in my view) to address it because small changes won’t save us in time.

singpolyma3 a day ago | parent | prev [-]

And yet were still selling power to USA. Ford lost his right to an opinion when he decided to make noise about "Fighting" but refuses to do the only thing that could cause trouble

foxyv a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yup! Just like a game of chicken that goes a little too far.

vkou a day ago | parent | prev [-]

> anything said here applies to Canada as well.

Correct. But Canada didn't start this trade war, all it can do is respond to it.

And the correct way to respond to a bully, fraud, and liar is tit-for-tat. Tax his exports, tax your irreplaceable exports. Tax and block his digital and media services.

usefulcat a day ago | parent | prev [-]

> They increase prices for foreign goods

Not only for foreign goods. If there's a tax on imported X, domestic X producers can now charge more because the foreign producers must raise their prices to pay for the tax.

Another way to look at it is that any tariff reduces foreign competition, with all the knock-on effects that implies.

litoE a day ago | parent [-]

It's not the foreign producer who must raise her prices to pay for the tax. It's the local importer. The net effect on the consumer is that the price of imported goods goes up so then, as you say, the local producers can raise their prices and increase their profits.