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retrac 6 days ago

> I guess Cleopatra feels somewhat 'close' to us due to the surviving literary and archeological artifacts from the Roman empire.

It's due to the historiography of western civilization that for so long always traced its origins back to Greece (and Cleopatra was, of course, Greek.)

Compare to Mesopotamia, Sumer mentioned by the parent comment. There may be more surviving cuneiform literature than Greek and Latin. The sheer volume is kind of hard to overstate. The Library of Ashurbanipal is a prime find but hardly the only one of its kind: 30,000 tablets including mostly-complete copies of epic poems, histories, dictionaries, and thousands of administrative and personal letters. And there's millions more tablets from thousands of other digs.

And the crates and crates and crates of ordinary shipping receipts, if ever systematically studied, offer the potential to understand their society in ways we never will with classical antiquity.

But most haven't been read. There aren't enough people who know Sumerian and Akkadian (and all the other languages written in cuneiform over its 3000 year history) and how to read cuneiform for the task to translate them all to be completed in our lifetimes.

Stories of Mesopotamia do not always resonate. In fact they are often very alien and inscrutable. It's very hard to grasp the Mesopotamian mind. I'm unsure if this is lack of familiarity or because they really were so different, because in the western tradition they are the canonical Eastern Other, and shrouded with thousands of years of myth and misunderstanding.

Despite, or perhaps because of, the strangeness, I found reading translations of Gilgamesh and Atra-Hasis to be revelatory and hope that my descriptions don't put anyone off. They're worth it. To this day "Babylon" has all sorts of associations, many of them unsavory. Which is rather unfair to them.

The Babylonians had 360 degrees in their circles, 24 hours in their days, and when they looked up at the stars they saw patterns like the Twins (what the Greeks would borrow as Gemini), the Bull of Heaven (Taurus), and the Crawfish (Cancer), the Hebrew month of Tammuz is named after the Sumerian fertility god Dumuzid, and the Mesopotamians leave many other echoes in the later cultures, now that we know to look.

thaumasiotes 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

> the Hebrew month of Tammuz is named after the Sumerian fertility god Dumuzid

There are more direct connections. The Greek god Adonis, Aphrodite's consort, is the near Eastern god Tammuz, with the same mythology and worship rites. (And his name reflects that; it's the Semitic title "lord", cognate with Hebrew adonai.)

0xffff2 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I really hate that I'm even typing these words right now, but wouldn't this be one of the few fields where modern LLMs would potentially provide a real capability that was previously lacking? I'm imagining an LLM might be able to provide rough first pass translations and provide hints about which specific tablets might be most interesting for a human that can't possibly look at them all.

roryirvine 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

There's inevitably been quite a bit of research in using LLMs to help decipher cuneiform, but it's still at a fairly early stage. Good overview here:

https://www.csmc.uni-hamburg.de/publications/mesopotamia/202...

"Artificial intelligence can therefore provide researchers with a significant support, helping them link together texts that mention the same individual, a geographical site, or a word within a large digitised corpus. But we are still far from machine decipherment of texts."

ch4s3 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I doubt there's much Akkadian and the 14 other languages written in cuneiform over more than 2,000 years. Several of these are language isolates. Its probably not intractable but would require a lot of human labeling and correcting by academics who can read these languages. It would be a fun legacy project for an eccentric billionaire. If I were Bezos, it would be on my todo list.

exhumet 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

and imo ive also thought the same thing, but then it does still come down to the amount of people and time it would take to go over those rough translations and pull the wanted info out of it. manpower is lacking in a lot of those fields

ericmay 6 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Why would you hate that you're typing those words? Technology is useful and neutral, and if we have good uses for it like it seems so here, let's do it! :)

inanutshellus 6 days ago | parent [-]

because it's a fad-ish response right now.

A decade ago every "omg just use [answer]!" was to suggest blockchain solve your problem.

Every possible problem seemed to have a solution that involved blockchain.

... now that "[answer]" is always "AI".

So I get his sense of cringe... while also acknowledging I had the same thought. We've never been better at pattern matching, pattern identification, OCR, translating across languages... seems like a great use of an LLM.

ccozan 6 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> There aren't enough people who know Sumerian and Akkadian

one LLM is enough!

MomsAVoxell 6 days ago | parent [-]

I'm really (honestly) waiting for the day when an LLM gets into the Akkadian and Sumerian texts and starts revealing extremely mind-blowing details to the world.

I truly believe we might one day, soon hopefully, see an LLM making observations about our history which blow open the horizon of humanities future.

Imagine, if you will, some of the secrets buried in these texts, revealing to us all just how it all began, and where things are headed.

In the grand context of galactic-scale civilizations, we might be in for some surprises ..

t-writescode 6 days ago | parent [-]

I’m not entirely sure why you’re downvoted. Though I don’t expect “ancient aliens” or anything of the sort, translating from A to B is literally what LLMs were invented for.

They’d be very, very good at reading, discerning, summarizing, etc, vast quantities of text like this.

lukan 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

They'd also be very good at halluzinating the most fascinating stories together. Unlike a for a coding agent with reproducible tests, it is hard for a history bot to verify it's finding.

MomsAVoxell 6 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I mean, even if or if not the ancient aliens things is in there, I’m pretty sure there are very wild things in there that will be equally enthralling.

I hope for example, that I live long enough to get an understanding of Rongorongo .. imagine the tales - or otherwise mundane details - we may some day extract from these immensely interesting human mysteries ..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rongorongo

Disclaimer: I’m also a fan of Protong and would love to see LLM also look for a prototype tongue along a similar framework of artistic interpretation … without Szukalski’s baggage, of course …