Remix.run Logo
delegate 2 hours ago

Why have we let X (et al) have total control over the content posted by the users ?

Why do the users agree to the limits imposed by them and let the platform decide who gets to see the content they posted ?

Because they're offering the infrastructure. The tech for such a network is now within reach of many, but these apps are heavily dominated by network effects and that makes it impossible for competing apps to take hold.

This is negative for society.

Firefighters who deal with forest fires, police, governments, rescue services (here in Spain) are all posting their updates on X - because, like the users, they have no choice, because no alternative exists.

People who don't have an account are not getting vital information because the company decided to restrict access to the entire network.

This needs to be regulated somehow. At least for public services and major news outlets - as a tax for the network effect these apps benefit from.

ghastmaster 28 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

>Firefighters who deal with forest fires, police, governments, rescue services (here in Spain) are all posting their updates on X - because, like the users, they have no choice, because no alternative exists.

RSS. Website. Both have been around for a long time. We don't need to reinvent the wheel.

throw0101d 15 minutes ago | parent [-]

> RSS. Website. Both have been around for a long time. We don't need to reinvent the wheel.

A "foo-announce@" or "foo-alerts@" mailing list.

rjzzleep a minute ago | parent [-]

Acquire and extinguish with google mailing lists and RSS

xnorswap an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Because open protocols were abandoned, because they generally lacked security, discoverability, and perhaps most significantly of all, moderation.

Even FINGER had .plan files, where you could get status updates from people.

But how are you going to query whose plans you want to read, and who is going to moderate without centralisation?

It's the moderation in particular that dooms most federalised efforts. The web itself is only really moderated through the relative lack of discoverability, with Google and hosting providers having become a form of gatekeeper to remove the very worst of the web.

Twitter in the early days took off because it did solve a technological problem of the time. You only had your SMS enabled phone, no WAP or smartphone, and wanted to provide updates. They gave you a number you could text, which would post updates. Hence the character limit ( less than the SMS limit, to leave space for your credentials ).

Plenty of alternatives exist for getting information out, people just don't know where to look for it.

That technical problem disappeared, but it had by then grown to provide a service to rapidly get updates from people, one that had a sense of authority and the moderating effect and discoverability of centralisation is impossible to ignore.

bigfishrunning an hour ago | parent | next [-]

The requirement for strong moderation only exists *because* of centralization. If I'm looking at a linear feed of content, it has to be curated by someone. In the old days, content on the internet was mostly links between webpages -- the "web" if you will. If i like the content on a page, it'll link to other pages i may like, and I'm free to follow those links at will, and no third party moderation is required.

Contrast with modern social media, where everything is condensed into a single list of algorithmically curated content, and we've implicitly eroded a lot of freedom (and handed control to Big Tech)

All this to say: bring back webrings.

cestith 20 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

You’re right to a point. The Internet is much older than the Web. Content on the Internet was largely FTP sites, Gopher sites, and Usenet long before the Web existed. We also had MUDs, MUSHes, MOOs, talkers, chat rooms, BBSes, and more over Telnet well before the web was widespread.

    Telnet    1969, standardized 1983
    FTP       1971
    UUCP      1979
    SMTP      1981
    RSH       1983
    TCP/IP v4 1984
    NNTP      1986 (the successor to UUCP for newsgroups)
    IRC       1988
    Archie    1990 (search engine for ftp sites)
    Gopher    1991
    WWW       1989 first published 1991
    Veronica  1992 (search engine for Gopher sites)
    SSH       1995
akoboldfrying an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Well, replies to a post also require moderation. In general, if you want people to ever see something created by people outside of their explicitly chosen friends: moderation.

(Plenty of people don't want that, or would at least prefer interacting only with their explicitly chosen friends if they were forced to choose between that and unmoderated public access. For them, group chats on Signal/WhatsApp/Telegram suffice.)

bigfishrunning 41 minutes ago | parent [-]

> In general, if you want people to ever see something created by people outside of their explicitly chosen friends: moderation.

I saw plenty of things pre-social-media that was created by complete strangers. These were mostly things found via search or via recommendations from people I know. Having strangers moderate (and snoop, and have AI train on) the communication I have with people I already know (or people who i meet through them...) is the problem here.

mgbmtl 9 minutes ago | parent [-]

Most of the forums I participated in, in the past, ended up dying because of a very persistent troll or two. Some of them I knew in person. They were just so arrogant and thought they were doing the right thing. The communities died. A healthy community gives everyone the chance to speak. In person, that's often done subtly by moderators.

trompetenaccoun 44 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

There is a strong demand for censorship coming from not just governments and corporations but most regular people. It's not only big tech.

In the old days, most of the world wasn't online. The average internet user was a male Westerner in a tiny ideological bubble that represented not even 5% of the world's population. I fully agree with you that the old open web was better but the internet is more mainstream and monitored now and the average human isn't libertarian, to put it mildly. Corporations like X actually censor less than user moderated platforms such as Mastodon instances or most Reddit subs. Go on there to voice opinions that are unpopular with the moderators and you'll be banned in no time.

It's Eternal September.

anal_reactor an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Open protocols always end up with a "backend engineer doing frontend" situation. Which is okay if end users are other engineers, but not okay when end user is my mom.

vaylian 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> are all posting their updates on X - because, like the users, they have no choice, because no alternative exists.

The fediverse is a viable alternative. But most non-tech people don't know about it.

threetonesun an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Did websites and RSS stop working and I missed it? With more people doing AI searches a website is even more viable now, it's better for AI scraping than x.com.

vaylian 36 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

RSS still works. But it doesn't offer writing comments like twitter/mastodon. Depending on the use-case this might be desired though.

busywaiting 33 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> a website is even more viable now, it's better for AI scraping

That's not necessarily the endorsement you think it is.

threetonesun 13 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

It's 100% the endorsement I think it is, someone searching for "is there a fire near me" wants an answer. The main issue with websites (and why Twitter grew) is it became easier to colocate information and get real(ish) time updates. For sites that don't care about actual traffic being able to surface that data to AI bots is perfect. If it reinforces a loop of "oh [site] is the actual source of information" even better.

weberer 22 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

Why not? I'd much prefer if I can just send my agent to gather info among these sites than have to sign up for some Twitter clone, enable Javascript, then click around through a sea of algorithm bait.

johnnyanmac an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

I'm still honestly surprised that government entities didn't already solve this problem for themselves. We have means to mail, call, and even email our representatives, but technology seemingly stalled out 20 years ago and didn't keep up with the idea of having a digital forum. There are even multiple channels of verification to integrate, so such governmental forums could verify who is a constituent.

But that's not the end results. Senators have youtube channels, representative posts tweets and even tiktoks to update people, and emergency broadcasts post on Facebook. I'm not opposed to the expanded reach, but when that's their only official channel, it feels like something failed.

Recent years have only now made some non-US entities be pushed to start building away from this dependency, but it's a shame it had to get this far ingrained to begin with.

carlos22 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

And it has much less users, I would say its max 1-5% of X users.

vaylian an hour ago | parent [-]

That doesn't mean that it's not viable for posting public announcements

echelon an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

> The fediverse is a viable alternative

Bluesky attracted socialist progressives, furries, and kink-positive folks early on.

I'm not making any value statements, and there's nothing wrong with the userbase, but this is what dominates the feed for new users.

A lot of people are turned off by that when they see it as their first experience with the platform. Or they're actively turned away upon interaction. That's not how you build a big social network.

Mastodon is the exact same.

These platforms are also not winning people over by calling them "toots" and "skeets".

It's like Gimp refusing to adopt a Photoshop style UI for years and not changing their name.

Despite stated intentions, I think these platforms want to stay small and niche and non mainstream. If they wanted to grow big, they'd behave much differently. They'd try to get the Kardashians and would welcome posts about handbags and guns and sports.

RamblingCTO 44 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Mastondon/the fediverse feels even worse. Super lefty, super kinky, furry etc. Super weird. Fine that people have their bubbles, but as a normal person you feel totally alienated. X became a nazi dumpsterfire.

ageitgey an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Despite stated intentions, I think these platforms want to stay small and niche and non mainstream.

I think that's essentially it, whether they are doing it intentionally or not.

Running a social network is like curating a party or conference. Who you do and don't let participate, and who you do and don't promote above others, is essentially the product. And that is a lot of work.

Open protocols don't solve any of these problems, and people who care about open protocols don't tend to be the same people interested in curating giant parties and conferences for a mass audience.

shakna an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Is that not precisely how Twitter built their original social network...?

raverbashing an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

You're right

I'd say Mastodon at this point is mostly people talking in a vacuum (even more than BlueSky)

No mainstream discussion or debate comes from Mastodon, you don't see screenshots around (and you do see skeets around)

As much as SpaceXAi lost audience, there's a lot of discussion still going around there

BobAliceInATree 10 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Firefighters who deal with forest fires, police, governments, rescue services (here in Spain) are all posting their updates on X - because, like the users, they have no choice, because no alternative exists.

Government agencies have communicated to their citizens long before twitter has existed. There's a myriad of ways they can use today: websites (with or without RSS), email newsletters, text updates, other social networks (bluesky, threads, etc).

Choosing to give critical updates only on Twitter is definitely a choice and they are deliberately ignoring a very large segment of their population that doesn't have a twitter account.

digikar99 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I found this post from Nostr. I find it a saner alternative to fediverse, particularly because the identity is just a server-free public-private key pair

But I don't know when if ever we will have a significant mass there.

Hacker News 100 on Nostr: https://njump.to/nprofile1qqsfexztjz4sq05j972pv5h3s9w0gaqvay...

carlosjobim 7 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The competing app is e-mail. You can subscribe to important information by e-mail and send out important information to mailing lists.

> This needs to be regulated somehow.

Of course, this is HN so regulation is always the solution to all problems. Instead of making the people who are responsible for doing stuff and are getting paid for it get off their asses. They can easily post updates on government alert websites, on e-mail lists, and on social media and everywhere else to get the attention of the public.

arrowsmith an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Whatever happened to "Twitter can do what it wants, it's a private platform"?

johnnyanmac 42 minutes ago | parent [-]

I believe that sentiment started to die out around the time people realized a Nazi gained control over the world's centralized communication hub. Whether that says more about the communication, the nazi, or the people is a question for the ages.

parineum 39 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Why have we let X (et al) have total control over the content posted by the users ?

Because that's not what happened.

Why have users given control over their content to X?

thinkingtoilet an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

>Why have we let X (et al) have total control over the content posted by the users ?

Because it is a private enterprise that you signed up for. You don't have a right to Twitter. You don't have a right to Facebook. If you don't like it, leave. The entitlement is massive here. These sites are poison in so many ways. Stop feeding the beast.

johnnyanmac 38 minutes ago | parent [-]

>You don't have a right to Twitter.

Regulation over communication channels is not only common through the ages, but expected and needed. There may not be literal landlines to worry about in the modern age, but the general idea of communication being an important medium that shouldn't be squandered by competition remains.

I prefer everyone to simply leave Twitter and to let it crash and burn, but I see the arguments to have stronger regulations on channels central enough for governmental entities to be using it as a communication hub.