Python is awful. There are so many one offs in libraries, none agree on a style, it’s slow, and it’s way too easy to do the wrong thing. I often work with data scientists and have to productionize their jupyter notebooks which is pure suboptimal hell. I guess it must be a good easy learning curve for research/scratchpad

I’ll never not be bitter than Python “won” the scripting language war over Ruby, more or less just because someone did a bit of AI work in it first and it took over that space by default.

Ruby has such a nice holistic consistency to it. With a few exceptions, it feels like it was conceived of by one person with a core idea in mind. Python feels like a mess.

Python is a language for "consenting adults". It doesn't try to prevent you from doing awful things so you can do great things. People who can't program well are given plenty of rope to hang themselves. It shares that with Perl and Ruby.

That said, I find it the nicest, cleanest option of the three. I still wouldn't use it for large and complex projects. I really like it for stuff where one might otherwise use shellscript. It's way way better than shellscript... except if it's all about files and running external commands.

When one writes jupyter notebooks for DS you are not writing python. If you ask 10 DSs explain to me what python's attribute lookup model is and why is it different from other OO languages like say Java or C++, they would not care about it. The only thing DSs care about is the rich DS Library support and fast speed of protoyping. To a DS using jupyter this is almost the same feedback loop as a type system at compile time.

Have you tried using `uv`'s newer tools? They help a lot e.g. with linting speed, lock management, package dependency separation, correct python version mgmt and no need to fudge with venv.

How is that a language problem? Data scientists are not engineers. No matter what language you give them, they will hand you something you are going to have to polish for production.

The fact that Python has become the language of choice for machine learning and data science is not a language issue.

> it’s slow

For little utilities, it’s faster than a lot of alternatives - just start the interpreter, no compilation needed.

It’s all relative, but if you view it as replacing bash scripts for renaming files or running other tools, it’s 100x better.

You don’t like working with data scientists. The data science Python ecosystem is really a separate beast that’ll have “normal” coders scratching their heads at the best of times, some of the most popular packages do all sorts of metaprogramming, and the standards for code quality are very different. Don’t blame the language. Well, blame it only in that it allows such things in the first place, which does have some very nice precipitations now and again, as well as some very bad ones.

In an age where people are still standing by C over memory-safe systems programming languages, I feel quite comfortable depending Python for the great many things that Python is good at.

The performance hell thing is also also kind of a virtue, though. The language is awful, so everything that does any amount of compute is FFI'd into third party libraries (numpy, torch, sympy, etc). Those libraries are for the most part pretty well designed... or, at least, keep you in a few pretty well-constrained patterns that are easy enough to translate.

If you've ever read through FORTRAN code from a mathematics department or MATLAB/C/C++ from (non-software) engineering disciplines, then you probably understand why productionizing a jupyter notebook is definitely not the worst of all possible worlds.

I'm fine with the language. I just hate that you can't do

    import numpy==1.5.4

I used to build quant investment notebooks that had to be deployed in production. Lots of problems with that. Mine were: Notebook cells run out of order, so you often have something that works in a session, but not in a fresh run. Developing against limited datasets, so you fail against things you didn’t know to test for. Small adaptions that have to be made every time the notebook is translated into a code file. We streamlined it by making a graph-structured Computation a first class object that tracked staleness as code or data was updated. Then that class could be directly published, and when failures happened in production, the graph could be serialized with the inputs and intermediate calculation data that caused failure, for investigation in a notebook.

We open sourced the implementation https://github.com/janushendersonassetallocation/loman

I've never become a fan of the language syntax, but otherwise I've become quite smitten with the total Python ecosystem. The Agents/LLMs + uv combo have made Python so useful and productive for me.

My CLI tools publish from Github to PyPI so that I can run tools with just `uvx sql-agent-cli` or `uvx dlna-here. Nothing for me to handle downloading (directly myself), no environment to manually setup, portable (Linux, Windows, Mac, ARM, x86). Easy for agents to run from a skill.md file without any other prereq than uv.

Really useful library ecosystem to leverage. No more shell scripts, or TS/JS/PHP backend services. I've even used Python on devices I've built around Raspberry Pi Zero 2 boards.

> I often work with data scientists and have to productionize their jupyter notebooks

At least it’s Python/Jupyter and not R, SAS, or MATLAB.

Scripting languages are awful. Python is one of the nicest scripting languages.

> Python is awful.

> I often work with data scientists and have to productionize their jupyter notebooks

I'm not a huge Python fan, despite working with it fulltime, but this feels like mixing correlation and causation. Data scientists would not be writing good, optimized code in any language.

Python is amazing compared to writing bat/sh scripts. Different languages are for different purposes, using eg. Rust to write system scripts would just be mental. Whether people abuse those languages for purposes they were not intended for is another story, but that doesn't mean the language is inherently bad. And I mean,

> and it’s way too easy to do the wrong thing

is there another programming language where you believe a data scientist is going to have an easier time writing correct code than Python? Do you think C or Rust or JavaScript or C# make it harder to do the wrong thing?

C'mon man, I don't know any mid and above python developer who seriously has ever considered programming in Jupiter Notebooks. Python is not slow, it's you being the issue. If you are an amateur then it's easy to do the wrong thing, that's true.

Seems like an excellent user for LLMs