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erulabs 7 hours ago

The open web is dead. The open web remains dead. And we have killed it.

I'm actually much less anti-Musk than the average HN commentator but it should be universally agreed here that a small handful of mega-corp websites dominating the majority of content on the web is a bad thing. Nitter was hardly a solution. Federated platforms like Mastodon and Bluesky are "culturally" closed, and "free speech" platforms like X are "technically" closed.

IMO we all need to start vibe coding PHP bulletin boards again. 'RETVRN' etc.

alde 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> Federated platforms like Mastodon and Bluesky are "culturally" closed

What does the even mean if you can host your own

gs17 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Hosting your own doesn't really matter if it just means you're on a social network with one user.

dokyun 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Lots of people run single-user instances.

dokyun 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Nothing, fedi is extremely anarchic by design. If you don't like a server you can move to a different one, or start your own. The big Mastodon servers put in a great deal of effort to police what their users can see and interact with (see FediBlock), but it's impossible to shut certain people or groups out of the network entirely. It's a double-edged sword, but it's a net good for the kind of network it was intended to be, which is a hacker's network; it wasn't designed for normies.

gdulli 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

What does it even mean, period? MAGA losers are free to establish a community on Bluesky, the only difference between that and Twitter is that Bluesky isn't built to optimize for ragebait and culture war fighting. But they can still socialize among themselves on Bluesky even if no one else wants anything to do with them.

redeeman 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

the problem here is, that a large large group of people do want something "to do with them" (and "them" not just being "maga losers"), but that for NORMAL users that sign up and use bluesky, there are others who choose that they must not socialize with them.

normal people dont understand how they can join specific communities or instances or whatever it is on the specific platform, they want something like "twitter" and then thats where they are, they dont want "some weird twitter instance thats not the main one"

iknowstuff 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

kg 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Maybe they're referring to defederation? It's quite common on Mastodon as I understand it, due to disagreements on things like moderation between server operators.

jrflowers 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> IMO we all need to start vibe coding PHP bulletin boards again. 'RETVRN' etc.

The most recent release of phpbb was 2 months ago

iamnothere 4 hours ago | parent [-]

And it’s still having critical security vulns after 26 years

jrflowers 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Can’t get a CVE if every anonymously generated slop forum is different

_ink_ 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

They still work just fine, people need to use them instead of the drugs they get force fed by mega corps.

jackb4040 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If we reflect on the debate from years ago about whether to nationalize Twitter, all the downsides we were warned about have come true. They censor / promote whoever the state wants anyways, the CEOs was literally in the cabinet for a time, but now they also have to enshittify and degrade the experience for the benefit of an also-ran AI lab.

qzx_pierri 2 hours ago | parent [-]

All of the downsides you listed started with Jack Dorsey, and were significantly improved once Musk took over. X/Twitter still has its issues, though.

I’d tell you to check out the “Twitter Files”, but it seems Wikipedia has been completely compromised. And I’m hesitant to recommend you read about it on Grokipedia (you’ll assume there is major bias), but it does seem to be the most accurate retelling of the scandal that I can find online. Here are both though: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twitter_Files https://grokipedia.com/page/Twitter_Files Censorship-wise… Twitter was worse than Reddit at its peak (before being bought).

areoform 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

You can read the talk page yourself. Wikipedia's editors are annoying and impossible to work with, but their obsessions are weighted towards the truth. And while some editors have acted in bad faith for smaller articles; articles like that are generally treated with as much good faith as possible.

mmooss 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> significantly improved once Musk took over

At a certain point it's just words; what makes those meaningful? Musk bans and limits distribution for people he dislikes or who criticize him, intentionally directs hate mobs, promotes hate and disinformation, ...

frollogaston 2 hours ago | parent [-]

A lot of kinds of speech became allowed that weren't before. Old Twitter had banned several politicians including US Congress members for their views, sometimes for things like misgendering someone. Also banned NY Post.

mmooss an hour ago | parent [-]

Instead of rehearsing the same old arguments like a ritual, we know the heart of the issue:

(A) Freedom of speech is the highest value (that's applicable here), to simplify a bunch of stuff.

(B) Limiting antisocial behavior is valid 1) in any community, 2) especially when the behavior limits other people's freedom (e.g., by shouting them down or through intimidation or hostility), and 3) especially in the forum of a business that provides forums - they want their customers to enjoy the experience. There's some validity to a business with such widespread control of the public space respecting freedoms more broadly than they might privately like.

(C) Defining (B) in a way that respects (A) is the heart of the issue.

-

I think the issues with (C) are realtively easy to resolve:

* I) Don't tolerate intolerance, to apply Popper (to my understanding). The social contract is I tolerate you and you tolerate me; that's freedom. If someone violates the contract, the deal is off and they're out. They're a parasite on the relationships. As long as people respect that, they can say what they want. That's how a free society works, and works very well.

* II) Relative power matters: Intolerance + Power = Danger; Intolerance + Powerlessness = Rudeness. For example, a room contains 20 Romulans and 1 Klingon: The Klingon expressing hatred of Romulans is obnoxious but can be mostly ignored (maybe don't stand too close), while a Romulan expressing hatred of Klingons is a serious threat to the Klingon. In a discussion, it's a good way to silence the Klingon. Obviously, you can substitute any groups you want in that room, and I think it matters who is powerful in the wider world - for example, the billionaire can go elsewhere and be safe, while the homeless person has little safety, little room to express themself, anywhere.

IMHO the biggest problem is people who seek disruption - trolls - being parasites on good faith. At (C) they see a weak spot in the social fabric and they press on it and tear at it, trying to maintain deniability about what they are doing. By now everyone knows it when they see it; the great majority can be removed with ease.

-

> Old Twitter had banned several politicians including US Congress members for their views, sometimes for things like misgendering someone.

I didn't pay much attention to the issue - it was hard to find genuine (non-disingenous) information about it - so I don't know.

Generally I don't think being a politician gives you more rights than other people. You can easily have political debate without intolerance - without advocating against others' freedom. Do you have an example of the misgendering? A mistake is one thing; persistently doing it is harassment, an aggressive intolerance of someone's gender.

But the same goes for everyone - people can say, 'I think I'm either female or male, not both', and they shouldn't be harassed or silenced any more than people who say 'I think I'm neither female nor male; I'm somewhere on a continuum.'

There are always grey areas in everything in the universe, but I don't think these are hard.

frollogaston 37 minutes ago | parent [-]

https://ballotpedia.org/Elected_officials_suspended_or_banne...

The example I remembered was Jim Banks suspended for saying "The title of first female four-star officer gets taken by a man" in reference to a transgender officer.

TiredOfLife 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

What does a site stealing content has to do with open web?

mmooss 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> "free speech" platforms like X are "technically" closed.

Musk boots off and/or limits distribution of people he disagrees with. I can't fathom how you think that's 'free speech' - it's the opposite.

> Federated platforms like Mastodon and Bluesky are "culturally" closed

I've heard that - what is your experience? Downvotes and exclusion? Are there more 'open' servers?

dokyun 6 hours ago | parent [-]

> I've heard that - what is your experience? Downvotes and exclusion? Are there more 'open' servers?

Fediverse has plenty of servers which are "free speech" adjacent, which most Mastodon servers close off since its easier for them to police what their users can see than let them do it themselves. The vast majority of them do not run the Mastodon software, and feel far more "wild west" with all the shitposters. But if you want to talk with actual hackers and are into that sort of thing, it's fun times.

orphereus 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Which servers are these fun ones? I would like to explore a bit.

krapp 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Here is a page listing block lists, where you can find plenty of "fun" servers: https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/discussions/18143

They'll include reasons for the block, which you should pay attention to.

dokyun 15 minutes ago | parent [-]

https://fba.ryona.agency/ lets you browse instance block lists, sort by most defederated, who defederates the most, etc. There used to be FediBlock which maintained a centralized blocklist, but it doesn't exist anymore (gee, I wonder how something like that would end up eating itself?).

As far as reasoning goes, I think you can grasp how people would try and wield a tool like blocklists. A lot of blocks are merited, while some arent. I've had several blocks put on my instance from servers that I never even interacted with, for reasons that seemingly appear out of thin air.

krapp 10 minutes ago | parent [-]

I'm not against blocklists, I'm very much for them, and I use them on my own instance, and a browser plugin for HN.

dokyun 26 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

https://fedilist.com/ is a good instance browsing/monitoring tool maintained by the guy who runs fsebugoutzone.org, one of the more prominent and "fun" servers. He's a good dude.

You can browse by software, whether its open registration or not, allows tor, etc. You can glean statistics off of certain instances, which is really useful if you run one yourself. Most of the instances on the other side of fedi run the Pleroma software.

Have fun!