| ▲ | SXX 16 hours ago |
| Important context: this is US thing. EU capped interchange fees at 0.2% for debit and 0.3% for credit cards. So in US card processing is x5-x10 more expensive. |
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| ▲ | 59percentmore 15 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| Things that are more expensive in the US for no reason: Healthcare
Internet access
College
sighs and adds "The very act of making a purchase"At least we have cheap gas? farts |
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| ▲ | Gormo 15 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Internet access isn't particularly expensive in the US. Healthcare, education, and housing are expensive in the US for the same primary reason: political interventions that simultaneously subsidize demand and restrict supply. | | | |
| ▲ | joenot443 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Bit for bit, internet access is cheaper in America than it is in Canada or Australia. Canadians like myself have ~40% of our provincial taxes spent on healthcare, so in my case about ~8% of my gross income. Somewhere in the tune of $20k/yr. While I was living in Seattle and filing American, quite a bit less of my gross income went to healthcare. Just food for thought. | | |
| ▲ | StrauXX 14 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | But that is not because it's less efficient. With the Canadian system being socialzed and 20k$ being just 8% of your income it is to be expected that you would pay moch more than the median person into the system. | |
| ▲ | 59percentmore 14 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | "I make $250k CAD a year, my experiences must be representative of, and relevant to, the masses," is a wild thought to have. Well, maybe I spoke too soon, because my private American healthcare turns out to also be about 8% of my gross income (of $60k)(before copays and my deductible)(and also it's crap). Twinsies! But yes I agree that it would be awful to have my health needs taken care of and a mere ~160k USD left to spend on everything else. | | |
| ▲ | joenot443 10 hours ago | parent [-] | | Oh I certainly don’t think it’s representative to that of the masses, I was sharing an anecdote. I think either way both of us are in really good shape. In my experience the quality of American care is better in nearly every regard (having experienced both pretty intimately), but the simplicity and the peace of mind of the Canadian system has its benefits too. In either case you end up paying. > But yes I agree that it would be awful to have my health needs taken care of and a mere ~160k USD left to spend on everything else. I’m confused - do you actually think it’s awful? |
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| ▲ | vamli 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [dead] |
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| ▲ | api 15 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Internet access sort of has a reason: the US is geographically huge and more sprawled out. But that's not enough to explain all of the difference. | | |
| ▲ | stefanfisk 14 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | That’s not the reason. The required build out has actually already been been paid for: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-book-of-broken-promis_b_5.... But the US is so politically broken that corporations could just pocket the money without actually providing the infrastructure. That does even begin to touch on crazy laws banning people from setting up their own ISP to compete: https://www.techdirt.com/2024/11/07/16-u-s-states-still-ban-.... | |
| ▲ | Ekaros 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | That really explains only small parts. Even the horrible suburbs have little real reason to be that expensive. In the end it is really about lacking actual free market and enabling corporate capture as voted by the voters. | |
| ▲ | alistairSH 15 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | That might explain internet pricing in North Dakota, but it doesn't explain it in NYC or DC or LA. | | |
| ▲ | joenot443 15 hours ago | parent [-] | | I pay $40/mo for 500mbps in my Bushwick apartment - is that considered expensive? | | |
| ▲ | alistairSH 14 hours ago | parent [-] | | By US standards? No, probably not. But, a quick search indicates you can get similar broadband in Glasgow, Scotland for ~15 GBP/month. And Rome, Italy looks like ~25EUR/month. | | |
| ▲ | stefanfisk 14 hours ago | parent [-] | | I’m in Stockholm, and our condo HOA (BRF) includes 1Gbps per unit in the fee for all units because billing individually would cost more in admin than the service itself. We have FTTP and then cat6 to each unit. | | |
| ▲ | joenot443 10 hours ago | parent [-] | | That sounds really convenient! Is it a new building? I know the odd American or Canadian build will have that, but only the newer and more expensive ones. | | |
| ▲ | stefanfisk 8 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The building is from the 1940s. But this is a pretty common setup for condos in Swedish cities. Rentals usually have access to the same infrastructure but at higher prices due to kickbacks demanded by the landlords from the ISPs. The backbone of it all is a state owned fiber connecting the cities together with municipal fiber. But even outside of the cities FTTP is quite common. There are companies which specialize in finding rural areas where there’s enough interest to justify the cost of connecting them and then coordinating getting an economic association setup to own and manage the local infrastructure. | |
| ▲ | Hikikomori 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I had that in Sweden 20 years ago. Typically our local municipality put fiber whenever they dug up anything, so fiber is everywhere. |
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| ▲ | tiffanyh 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| To be more specific, this is a US credit card topic. Debit card fees are capped in the US, yet I’ve never received a discount from a merchant for paying with debit instead of credit. As such, I just pay with credit and have never understood this argument. |
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| ▲ | post-it 16 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | That's what makes it a wealth transfer, from debit card users to you. | | |
| ▲ | iso1631 15 hours ago | parent [-] | | In my country card fees are less than cash fees, so I guess that's a wealth transfer from card payers to cash payers? | | |
| ▲ | tiffanyh 15 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | That’s a great point. Managing cash for a merchant also brings real costs as well. You have to take it to the bank or pay a service to pick up cash. You’re way more likely to have “leakage” when any cashier can pocket cash. Etc | |
| ▲ | 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | gcr 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | In NYC, most independent shops give a debit card discount / credit card surcharge. | | |
| ▲ | rowls66 15 hours ago | parent [-] | | Card network rules in the US prohibit merchants from adding a surcharge for payment with a debit card. Most merchants are either unaware, or prefer not to care. If you are using a debit card at a business that assesses a card surcharge, point out that your card is a debit card when paying and refuse to pay the surcharge. If that does not help, there are online forms available from both Mastercard and Visa where you can submit a merchant complaint. | | |
| ▲ | StrauXX 14 hours ago | parent [-] | | The card processors policies are anti-competetive (albeit legal) abuses of their oligopoly. Reporting small vendors to them does not seem right to me. |
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| ▲ | KolmogorovComp 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > As such, I just pay with credit and have never understood this argument. Because the merchant pass the higher processing cost to all customers. | | |
| ▲ | rcxdude 15 hours ago | parent [-] | | And often the credit card companies try to enforce this by writing wording into their contracts that try to stop merchants offering different prices for different payment methods. | | |
| ▲ | hunter-gatherer 15 hours ago | parent [-] | | This is true. In fact, if you come across a merchant that accepts credit with a minimum purchase amount or tacks an extra fee, you can take the receipt and call the terminal owner (visa/MasterCard) and report it. The receipt has a terminal ID, and it turns out the likes of Visa get really pissed if merchants do that. I know this because I used to work on a US military base. There was a sole merchant on a particular installation that was doing this, but it was extreme. They'd force you to buy over 10 USD if you wanted to use a card, and it was the only place to grab a snack. One day there terminal was shut down, and for a period they only went to cash payments. Once they took credit again they removed the minimum purchase. Turns out somebody got pissed, and reported them. Regarding the article, the ~390 USR sounds about right to me. I only use a credit card, pay it completely off at the end of the month. I've never once paid interest since in the 8 years I have used this card. Every few years I buy a plan ticket with the rewards. | | |
| ▲ | rcxdude 15 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yeah, it propagates the problem because the price signal never makes it to the consumer. |
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| ▲ | cpburns2009 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Places around me have been starting to itemize the credit card fee. Only car dealerships so far have waived the fee for debit over credit in my experience. | |
| ▲ | ipython 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Until 2013, visa and Mastercard forbade merchants from charging more for credit card payments if they accept their credit cards. | | |
| ▲ | lazide 15 hours ago | parent [-] | | And it wasn’t out of the goodness of their hearts that they changed - they finally lost enough big court cases over it, it was to avoid heavy handed legislation. |
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| ▲ | greenavocado 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Once ever I was requested to either pay cash or via debit in a cafe in Montreal | |
| ▲ | fHr 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Good for you as you're smart but less smart people don't do this and then get scammed legally. |
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| ▲ | gorgmah 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It's partly true: this only applies to consumer cards. That's why many EU banks still offer corporate credit cards with huge cashback etc. For example, revolut offers no cashback in France on their metal cards if you have a consumer account, but up to 1% cashback on the same card if you have a "freelance" account. https://www.revolut.com/fr-FR/metal/ Second thing: interchange fees are not the only fees that your typical store has to pay, the total fees are much higher. I think the EU essentially capped Visa/Mastercard profit in the EU, more than they capped small business fees for card payment. |
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| ▲ | Torkel 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| How does it work if I have a US credit card and use it abroad? Do I still get the kickback even though the merchant fee is capped? This feels like a potential arbitrage opportunity... I live in Sweden, but if I can use a US credit card I can get high rewards? |
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| ▲ | tiffanyh 15 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Issuing banks typically add an FX fee to the cardholder for cross border transactions. Not always, but many times they do. | | |
| ▲ | tialaramex 15 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Even if the FX is notionally "free" they pick the rates. So they can set those rates to generate exactly the same profit for them as with fees. You will probably not see rates that are even competitive with a dodgy FX cash place at an airport, let alone with the numbers you've seen on financial networks for what FX transactions by banks cost, but you feel happy because there was "no fee". | | |
| ▲ | gruez 15 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | >they pick the rates. So they can set those rates to generate exactly the same profit for them as with fees. No, the rate is set by the card network, eg https://usa.visa.com/support/consumer/travel-support/exchang... | | |
| ▲ | tialaramex 14 hours ago | parent [-] | | Huh. I wonder how long that's been true. I guess I haven't been to America since last century, but I could have sworn I had zero fee but unreasonable FX rates when I was in Poland which can't have been more than 25 years ago. |
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| ▲ | decimalenough 15 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | This is flat out incorrect. It's actually quite difficult to get a cash FX rate that's even close to as good as the standard credit card FX rate, which is also set by Visa/MC and not the banks. Where the banks do get their pound of flesh, though, is the foreign transaction surcharge, which is often around 3%. No-fee cards exist but you need to look for them. And a whole new set of charges applies to doing a foreign cash advance on a credit card. |
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| ▲ | nutjob2 15 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | This is misleading. Banks put a fee on foreign transactions, many do this even if the transaction is in the card's native currency. The card companies always add a margin to FX conversions, usually in the 0.5% range. This is fairly benign since the market rate can move between the transaction and the settlement, so sometimes you save money. |
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| ▲ | Symbiote 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | In Denmark most retailers will pass on the surcharge they get from accepting a foreign (non-EU) card with higher fees. You see at the bottom of restaurant menus a note stating this. It also applies to Danish business credit cards, as those aren't covered by the consumer credit card fee limits. | |
| ▲ | decimalenough 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Most credit cards charge fat fees for foreign transactions (3% is common) and make some extra money on the exchange rate as well. | |
| ▲ | AnssiH 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | At least in Finland merchant contracts often specify higher rates for non-EU cards. | |
| ▲ | 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | evandijk70 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | A lot of places in the Netherlands (particularly the low margin ones like supermarkets) don't accept credit cards. | |
| ▲ | LastTrain 15 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Yes, you have outsmarted the entire US credit card industry and all of their actuaries! |
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| ▲ | JKCalhoun 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| In Germany I saw they charged extra for using my credit card. A U.S. retailer told me the credit card companies won't allow that in the U.S.? |
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| ▲ | wookmaster 10 hours ago | parent [-] | | They charge you extra, they just make it invisible. The store has to pay the fees and it causes prices to go up for everyone to cover them. |
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| ▲ | criddell 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| How generous are credit card rewards in the EU? |
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| ▲ | amarcheschi 15 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | With sumup I get 0.5% cashback up to a whopping 10€/ month lol. There are other cards giving cashback, I think Amex blu has a 1% with no upper bound of monetary cashback | | | |
| ▲ | bluebarbet 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Presumably not very, because the large majority of Europeans do not use credit cards. | | |
| ▲ | SXX 16 hours ago | parent [-] | | I'd say it heavily depend on country. In some of them they are popular, but in others even debit cards is something only few people have. |
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| ▲ | AnssiH 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | My understanding is that they are much less generous on average compared to U.S. E.g. for now I have the most premium card offered by my bank (50€/mo), and it gets me extra product insurance, rental car insurance, travel insurance, free lounge access, and some other things like that, but no cashback or similar. I think some premium cards do offer cashback nowadays, but they are in the minority. Some cards also offer airline reward points. My experience is limited to Finland, though. | | |
| ▲ | Hikikomori 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | US are not generous either. Merchant increase prices by 5% to cover costs, you get 2.5% cashback and visa/your bank pockets the other 2.5% you're paying. |
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| ▲ | SXX 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Normal cards not very generous. Fintech can sometimes give 1% cashback capped at 30-50-100 EUR. Some weird crypto stuff can give more cashback, but it mostly for scheming nerds. | |
| ▲ | edent 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | In the UK (which broadly follows the same rules), I get 0.25% with a Visa and 1.25% with Amex. Sometimes there are introductory offers for a few months. | | |
| ▲ | Symbiote 15 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | And as a result of that, Amex is often not accepted. | | |
| ▲ | rsynnott 14 hours ago | parent [-] | | And is largely dying out as far as I can see; it’s only even still issued in a couple of European countries. |
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| ▲ | SXX 15 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | At least in the UK Amex interchange fees are not capped like Visa and Mastercard. |
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| ▲ | throwaway_20357 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Usually ~1%. Some direct cashback, some via rewards points (e.g. 1.5 AMEX MRP earned per EUR are roughly worth 1ct). | |
| ▲ | graemep 15 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | There are similar caps in the UK and most credit card rewards seem to be low after an initial offer period. There are some specific discounts and benefits but not cash rewards. It is illegal (not banks will not let you, actual legislation) here to charge more for card payments or discount for cash or bank transfer. |
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| ▲ | account42 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Still affects us as sticker prices are not set independently. Even if you exclusively buy locally, $ = € is extremely common for MSRP. |
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