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▲ TSiege 5 hours ago

I think describing what's happening "other countries seem to sit on their hands and happily outsource every bit of manufacturing to a single country" is disingenuous. It's been dubbed China Shock 2.0 and it's being taken very seriously by the EU. The US admin is a joke and too busy shooting itself in both feet to have coherent policy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Shock_2.0

▲ 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]
[deleted]
▲kroaton 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

As if our EU leaders aren't a complete joke as well. Pushing ChatControl, fascism and gambling everywhere. We're just as much of a joke.

▲pydry 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's not disingenuous. It was obvious this was happening 15 years ago and the US and EU could have done something about it back then.

The tendency to protect corporate profit margins is the western Achilles heel and China knew they could exploit that.

▲1234letshaveatw 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

yet somehow the outcome for the US has been much better. EU wins on paper though, yay!

▲Dah00n 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Sure if you are Bezos or Musk. Otherwise, no.

▲holoduke 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Gdp grew much faster in the US than in the EU. I believe the EU is the worst performer of the planet. No joke. And not surprising with the self destructive actions.

▲Sohcahtoa82 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

This doesn't really refute what Dah00n said.

Sure, GDP in the USA is growing faster than the EU, but the question is who is benefiting from the increased GDP?

The answer is in Dah00n's comment. The rich are getting richer, while the population gets scraps. Meanwhile, people in the EU get guaranteed healthcare, paid time off, maternity leave, better worker's rights, etc.

▲preg_match 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The GDP growing faster while quality of life doesn’t meaningfully improve is a bad, bad sign. It means we’re burning extra money just to stay afloat and break even. That’s worse than if the GDP didn’t grow.

▲cindyllm 17 minutes ago | parent [-]

[dead]

▲well_ackshually 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Because as everyone knows, GDP is _the_ indicator for well being of its citizens. Nobody in the US is in catastrophic health related debt, because the US's GDP grew so much <3

▲oblio 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> outcome for the US has been much better

Is this better outcome for the US in the room with us?

▲nxm 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Compare any measurable economic and investment stat in EU vs US

▲makingstuffs 4 hours ago | parent [-]

What happens when you compare quality of life? Or workers rights? Pretty sure that your average person cares more about those two data points…

▲saturn8601 3 hours ago | parent [-]

That might be a mirage temporarily made reality by outsourcing defense to the US, manufacturing to China and the work required for GDP growth to refugees.

All three will be going away sooner or later.

▲AngryData an hour ago | parent | next [-]

How is locally producing military equipment versus buying extremely expensive US uberl33t overkill hardware suppose to hurt the EU? It not like the US was just giving Europe free armaments.

Yeah sure they won't be producing any F35s or million dollar per shot missiles, but was that a good idea to start with? Are they worth the money when once again lots of inexpensive arms are shown to be more useful in modern wars than a few handfuls of expensive ones? Both Iran and Ukraine have shown that one side being a few steps ahead in military technology and willing to dump money on equipment still has limited returns. There is no "I win" technology apart from indiscriminately killing most of the entire population, which just makes you an existential enemy to the rest of the planet and erases 95% of the value in taking that territory.

▲saturn8601 22 minutes ago | parent [-]

Its really not that obvious to you? Because not having US bases on site and technology sharing and agreements takes money away from entitlements. France tried to cut entitlements by a tiny bit and the yellow vest movement was born. In the long run the Yellow Vests might end up losing everything as a result.

Regardless of the tech stack the work still needs to be done and now the EU has to do it. The Eu does not have infinite money, in fact they have less than the US so there will be cuts elsewhere.

▲anon48293 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Pretty sure almost every European would celebrate any of these things

▲saturn8601 20 minutes ago | parent [-]

If they did, they would have done it already. Instead when there was an attempt, some protested wearing yellow vests. There will be more. Whether or not the governments force the issue or they lose to the voters does not matter: Either way quality of life will suffer.

▲oblio an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Before outsourcing defense to the US... sorry, but have you ever read a history book? Europe was "exporting defense" around the world before the US got involved in the world wars :-))

Before outsourcing manufacturing to China Europe was making a third of all industrial things on this planet, so Europe will be just fine.

> the work required for GDP growth to refugees

I don't get this one. Do you think the European economy is propped up by refugees? I think there are 5 million of them in total in Europe, most of them Ukrainians and it's likely Ukraine will become a EU member at some point in the future...

▲saturn8601 15 minutes ago | parent [-]

>Before outsourcing defense to the US... sorry, but have you ever read a history book? Europe was "exporting defense" around the world before the US got involved in the world wars :-))

And they will continue to do so. Just at a higher cost with no US to maintain bases and do technology cost sharing. That extra money has to come out from somewhere...it will be entitlements. Combine that with terrible demographics and that remaining manufacturing base will be built on a bed of sand. :)

>Before outsourcing manufacturing to China Europe was making a third of all industrial things on this planet, so Europe will be just fine.

Europe can insource everything that China makes. They are not stupid people. You mistake the benefit westerners got from outsourcing. It held back inflation in products because the value came from the living standards difference between chinese and EU people. Remove that disparity by bringing back everything and EU will be living with a lower quality of life because all those products will be significantly more expensive with no alternatives.

>I don't get this one. Do you think the European economy is propped up by refugees? I think there are 5 million of them in total in Europe, most of them Ukrainians and it's likely Ukraine will become a EU member at some point in the future...

Same point I have been making. The consequences of demographic collapse can be hidden away by having young tax paying peoples do the shit jobs that run the economy at low wages. Same thing the US does with illegal migrants. Remove that and the hidden costs are now dumped onto the population. Result: Lower living standards for those who remain.