It is possible to ignore laws if it's too much bother to comply with them... it's hard to imagine the authorities will come after someone for mailing out 10 anti-static bags.

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FinnLobsien 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The problem is that even this has a chilling effect on innovation:

1.It will dissuade some people from starting in the first place because it's one more hurdle. Even if in practice people don't comply, the existence of that complexity will dissuade some people.

2.Even if nobody is being prosecuted for mailing 10 anti-static bags, what is the number at which you do comply? And once you do, will you be held accountable for everything that came before?

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caseysoftware 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That's a very American mindset. I've worked across both the US and EU at a variety of companies with customers, partners, etc and it's a clear pattern:

- Americans are usually willing to skirt the rules and figure it out later. This comes with risk but is ideal when you're early stage, low stakes, and you couldn't follow the rules anyway.

- Europeans absolutely want to do it by the book and will be shocked if you suggest otherwise. Being process oriented is great for high stakes industries where lives and safety are on the line but destroys startups, likely slowing or even killing innovation.

There is no floor to the level of "petty" that can happen here: the UK - granted, not the EU - goes after individuals who don't pay their TV license and determine the who by triangulating unlicensed TVs via radio trucks and inspectors looking in your windows.

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pjc50 an hour ago | parent | next [-]

The TV license is silly but the detector van situation is bogus, at least in the present day; really they just blanket mail demand letters to every address in the database on the assumption that everyone watches TV.

> Europeans absolutely want to do it by the book

Again on HN, I don't think conflating Europe and all Europeans into a uniform culture works. This might be true of Germany but as you get further from Berlin it is .. less so.

(Famous story from the Greek debt crisis of using satellite photos to find swimming pools and therefore people who were probably underpaying income tax, which was at such poor compliance levels the state was struggling)

	▲	caseysoftware 8 minutes ago \| parent [-]
		Yes, it appears the "detector vans" are an urban legend/propoganda. Even more fun, in the lead up to Greece joining the EU, they had to get their government pay under control so they were given monthly caps on what they could pay people. No problem, they created a 13th month. * As detailed in Michael Lewis' Boomerang: https://amzn.to/4cXJnjE - He's the same guy who wrote The Big Short and Moneyball

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kakoni an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Perhaps one explanation is personal bankruptcy? At least in Scandinavia/Finland this is an unknown concept. You mess up your business (Ireland has EPR fines upto 500ke) and end up paying company loans for the rest of your life.

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fluoridation an hour ago | parent [-]

Do they not have LLCs?

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kakoni an hour ago | parent [-]

Of course, but when getting bank loan(for the llc) to get started you have to give personal collateral.

	▲	fluoridation 32 minutes ago \| parent [-]
		I don't think any bank will give you such a huge personal loan that you could end up in debt for your whole life, since they typically want the loan repaid. The only way I can imagine that happening is if you're a sole proprietor and you get sued or fined. I can't think of another way to get exposed to that much liability.

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dwedge 33 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Most people are under the impression that those triangulating trucks can't detect anything and they're just an obvious looking enforcement truck used as a scare tactic, is that not the case?

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maeln an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I don't really have this experience. A lot of business I have worked with followed the "let's just do it and figure out the risk later" approach. In highly regulated environment it was different, but then looking for ways to squirt around the rules was the game. See for example the CumCum (don't blame me, it was called like that) tax-evasion scheme put in place by french banks.

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Lumaestro an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Depends on what Europe you mean. Europe can be quite different depending on where you are. I wouldn't say northern Europe wants to do it by the book all the time like the Germans.

Quite common to view Europe as all the same, but Europe varies much more than what US does.

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Always42 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Do regular tv’s transmit?

	▲	caseysoftware an hour ago \| parent [-]
		The old CRTs do, yes. Not so much with LCDs. But unfortunately, I may be wrong and bought into an urban legend/bit of propoganda: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Television_licensing_in_the_Un...

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ranger_danger 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I find this hard to discuss among others as it often results in heated discussions, but in my experience, Europeans have a completely different understanding of what is considered "rude" so much that I struggle to work with a vast majority of them.

That's not to say that there aren't extremely nice people all other Europe... there are. But I'm still caught off guard when hearing them say some things nonchalantly that would get them fired in the US.

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scns an hour ago | parent | next [-]

> But I'm still caught off guard when hearing them say some things nonchalantly that would get them fired in the US.

I'm intruiged, can you give an example?

	▲	caseysoftware an hour ago \| parent [-]
		Not sure if it's a pattern but when I interviewed with an EU company recently, they explicitly asked if I was married and if I had kids. They explained it as they had a "European mindset towards weekends and holidays" and they expected me to NOT be online. I was fine with the mindset but never expected to get those questions in an interview, as it'd be illegal in the States.

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dragochat an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

wtf are u talking about? some examples would be in order...

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lukan 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Likely not, but would you want the extra risk and the stress involved, that maybe one day you will find a expensive letter in your box?

	▲	billyp-rva 2 hours ago \| parent [-]
		It depends on how expensive that letter is.

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anonzzzies 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yeah, I always ignore them, first in my own country (NL) and after that in EU. Even if they fine (which they don't for small companies/persons), they will not spend money/efforts to cash the fine anyway, especially across borders. I had a few useless fines in the 35 years of my company, never will pay them.

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matt-p 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Maybe it's super convenient for you in the moment, but the aggregate effect is pretty bad. If everyone just ignores laws because they're too much hassle and they don't expect to get caught, enforcement becomes incredibly difficult. You end up with loads of laws that technically exist but are only selectively enforced, which is a pretty serious problem.

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throw-the-towel an hour ago | parent [-]

How would you then have backpressure against bad laws?

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matt-p an hour ago | parent [-]

Courts, lobbying (writing to your MP), campaigning, demonstrations, elections ideally. I know that non-compliance is the path of least resistance, it's just got really bad consequences.

	▲	throw-the-towel 41 minutes ago \| parent [-]
		But then you hit the same problem LLM slop exploits: the cost of refuting bullshit becomes way higher than the cost of generating it.

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dmix 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Great way for larger companies to knock you their smaller competitors by hiring a firm to vet they follow the rules

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bluGill 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You risk that someone wants to make an example of you. You might run for mayor and your past is dig up and exaggerated

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pelagicAustral 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Don't hold your breath.

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AndroTux 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Sounds like a great opportunity for folks to sue you for exactly that. Same with the imprint requirement in Germany. There are people out there looking for small businesses without an imprint to extract some money from them.

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9dev 2 hours ago | parent [-]

As they should. As a customer, I want to be able to hold a business accountable, and the minimum requirement for that is being able to identify the legal person responsible for that business.

	▲	AndroTux 2 hours ago \| parent [-]
		Yes, I too want the smallest Twitch streamer to have to put their exact home address publicly on the internet so they have no protection from weirdos and stalkers. If a post box would suffice, sure, I'd be down. But that's explicitly not allowed. But regardless, kinda OT. I was just trying to make a point that ignoring a law isn't without consequences.

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raverbashing 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Yeah I'm betting on that as well

In the end, it's mail being sent.