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camgunz a day ago

Anyone can buy a table saw. Doesn't make you a carpenter and it doesn't mean you can/should build anything.

tptacek a day ago | parent | next [-]

In case you yourself do not own a table saw, I should point out that table saws don't rip, cut, or mill stock for you. It's like saying "buying a hammer doesn't make you a carpenter".

santadays a day ago | parent | next [-]

In case anyone missed it, tptacek is saying that ai is different than just a tool. Tool analogies are not good.

A better analogy is, now you have what seems like an increasingly intelligent personal assistant that can do any cognitive work that you ask it to do, to increasingly better result, has retrograde amnesia, no accountability, entirely middle of the road morality, access to the internet... eh this isn't really a good analogy either.

EA-3167 a day ago | parent [-]

Don't forget that when you're using it in your own domain you can at least catch its many mistakes and hallucinations, but "Citizen Devs" aren't going to have a knowledge base to do that.

tptacek a day ago | parent [-]

I often wonder whether computer programmer said these kinds of things about spreadsheets, and how mere office workers would never have the knowledge base to build serious programs with them. Remember, before Visicalc, every spreadsheet was a program built by a computer programmer.

tomwheeler a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Or, in the words of Morris Day, "It takes more than a hat to call yourself a chef."

More people have the capability now, but not necessarily the experience or understanding.

tptacek a day ago | parent | next [-]

The hat : chef analogy is even less apposite than the table saw! At least the table saw serves an important function in that trade.

cuttysnark a day ago | parent [-]

Culinary hats serve the important purpose of helping catch stray hairs, not unlike a hairnet.

tptacek a day ago | parent [-]

Walk into a fine dining restaurant kitchen and count the number of chefs hats you see.

b112 a day ago | parent | prev [-]

Capability? I have to push back on that (AI sounding joke, yes).

Point is, if I give a person a calculator, it doesn't even make them the tiniest bit of a mathematician. Nor if I give them a pencil, either. The tool never, ever makes the tradesperson.

Whatever's happening with LLMs, it's not making people programmers. It's how you use the tool, which validates that.

tptacek a day ago | parent | next [-]

Wait: a calculator doesn't make you a mathematician because you have to know math to get the calculator to do anything. A pencil does even less for you. You can't say any of that about AI.

josephg a day ago | parent | next [-]

> You can't say any of that about AI.

It’s weird though, LLMs still don’t seem very good at magically enabling most non developers able to make software. I’ve tried with a couple people - mostly for curiosity’s sake. Even when they have pressing needs that software could solve, they’re really resistant to talking to the machine about them. Then they don’t know what to actually ask the ai to do. Regular people don’t seem to know what use cases are. Or what a design mockup is. They don’t know what a website is, or what the limitations are. The llm could help guide them through all of this, but the people I’ve sat down in front of the machine didn’t ask the machine to guide them through the process at all.

Of course, if you only know how to vibe code, that doesn’t make you an engineer. But I’m no longer convinced that LLMs make developers pointless. If anything, so far they seem to make our skills much more valuable. With LLMs, I can get a lot of low quality work done quickly if that’s what the project calls for.

b112 a day ago | parent | prev [-]

Entering 2x2 in the calculator, gives you 4, just as looking up the answer on a chart. Yet no one would give you the title of "mathematician" for doing so.

AI doesn't make you an expert. Or even a professional in any field. First, AI is terrible at cogent work, without someone driving it. And even if you do get it to do all the work, then that's not you doing it.

"Hi, I asked a coder friend to write an app, I'm a developer", nope!

localfauna a day ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

Avicebron a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

At what point does whacking something together yourself with a hammer make you a carpenter? You would think that even with carpentry there is a spectrum from ignorant rube to master craftsman. If you fire and forget a LLM agent at a problem, where does that land you on the spectrum?

tptacek a day ago | parent [-]

It doesn't, it's just that people keep making comparisons between AI and basic tools of specific trades, but none of those tools work the way AI does.

(I mean, I guess as soon as you start whacking things together with a hammer, you technically sort of are being a carpenter, but that's not the point.)

fc417fc802 a day ago | parent [-]

Tools can be more or less automated. Using a CNC for example doesn't necessarily mean that I qualify as an aspiring machinist. Similar to AI a CNC happily carries out a course of action largely independent of the operator.

I think whacking things together with a hammer is the act of building (however inexpertly) whereas carpenter (and other titles) convey something about expertise, mindset, or the intent to hone skills. The DIYer might or might not qualify as an amateur carpenter/electrician/plumber/whatever.

tptacek a day ago | parent [-]

So far the closest analogy I've come up with to coding agents is a 3D printer. Captures the amount of effort and the quality of the outputs.

miyoji a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Owning a slave that does all those things still doesn't make you a carpenter.

rascul a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> table saws don't rip, cut, or mill stock

They actually do all of that

tptacek a day ago | parent | next [-]

Not for you! You have to actually know how to do that, and physically push the stock through the blade. If you know zero about a table saw, you're more likely to turn a piece of wood into a projectile than to cross-cut it accurately. Again: not something you can say about a coding agent.

rascul a day ago | parent [-]

The saw does them for you but it doesn't operate itself. Perhaps I read it too literally.

santadays a day ago | parent | prev [-]

you missed the "for you"

a day ago | parent [-]
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stackghost a day ago | parent | prev [-]

>Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

I think it's pretty obvious what parent poster was implying. Pedantic nitpicks add nothing to the discussion.

edit: sigh, fucking rate limits are such a dumb mechanic if you want quality long-form discussion. By the time I can reply nobody will be looking at their replies.

anyways LLMs might displace "programmers" in the way that 3D CAD software replaced draftsmen, but software engineering, the actual design and architecture skill, isn't going anywhere. I can use carpentry tools to build a bridge over a creek but I'm not qualified to build a bridge carrying Interstate traffic.

tptacek a day ago | parent [-]

It is obvious what the parent poster is saying, and it's substantively wrong. Give someone a table saw and they're essentially no closer to being a woodworker. It's tricky to use a table saw (trickier still to use it safely).

These tool analogies are self-soothing for programmers who see agents is simple tools of their trade. But the point of articles like this is that AI agents are more like spreadsheets --- only more so. They're devices that allow normal people without training or aptitude to do things with computers that only programmers were doing before. They displace programmers.

In that sense, the closest physical analogy to a coding agent is probably a 3D printer. But: a really good 3D printer, into which hundreds of billions of dollars had been invested entirely for the purpose of making the printer work weirdly well even for people who have no interest in the different kidns of filament spools.

a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]
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rascul a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I'd recommend a battery powered circular saw instead of a table saw to get started.

7bit a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The first step in becoming a carpenter is to become a bad carpenter.

arionhardison a day ago | parent [-]

I cannot disagree here in theory; but to say that: "The first step to become a doctor is NOT to be a bad doctor, its to go to medical school"

pixl97 a day ago | parent | next [-]

Bomb squad technician seems more pertinent here.

a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]
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7bit a day ago | parent | prev [-]

Doctors different mate. There a shit ton of people who just bought a table saw and now are good carpenters.

The claim I responded to was nothing but weak elitist gatekeeping. Such people should think really hard why they are how they are. It's ob obnoxious.

arionhardison a day ago | parent | next [-]

Agreed, and I in no way meant to be pedantic. I think I did a bad job of articulating point of - where do we draw the line? How many tables did the "people who just bought a table saw" sell before they were "good carpenters". With AI, there are lots of people who think they are "good carpenters".

Here in the US; the head of HHS and DOD decided that flu vaccines were no longer mandatory; until the flu exploded on military bases. I am not taking a position here because I genuinely do not know what the answer to this is but I do think it is as important as it is interesting.

I many ways I think AI amplifies the "The Dunning-Kruger" by an order of magnitude; I think this could be one of the defining issue of our time.

7bit a day ago | parent [-]

For me I say this: I don't need to draw a line for other people.

If I choose to hire someone for a job, I really don't care how they got there. Be it self taught or through school or university.

Drawing a line always means you take away opportunity, which isn't yours to take.

stackghost a day ago | parent [-]

What if you hire a firm to build you a 25-storey office tower? Do you care if the firm's structural engineer actually went to engineering school?

I sure do.

arionhardison a day ago | parent | next [-]

Chevron Deference

arionhardison a day ago | parent | next [-]

It is what ensured that people enforcing specific laws had actual expertise in said area.

stackghost a day ago | parent | prev [-]

What about it

7bit a day ago | parent | prev [-]

I think you're not understanding what I wrote. Feel free to try again.

stackghost 16 hours ago | parent [-]

>I think you're not understanding what I wrote.

Entirely possible.

>Feel free to try again.

Feel free to add clarification.

kraken_cult a day ago | parent | prev [-]

Remember "Doctors, Lawyers, Engineers". There's a reason they go together..

stackghost a day ago | parent [-]

>There's a reason they go together..

They're all self-regulating professions with licensing bodies and professional standards?

a day ago | parent | prev [-]
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