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leecommamichael 2 hours ago

The Odin programming language does this! It has also decided not to provide a package manager.

hnlmorg 40 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Go took the same approach and ended up having to implement a halfarsed one when everyone started implementing their own.

leecommamichael 34 minutes ago | parent [-]

Has Go not had the most secure ecosystem?

What is your critique of their approach? Is it not the case that `go get` is the only one which doesn't even provide a way for the person downloading to run the downloaded code until it is actually executed by the consuming codebase? That seems pretty sound by comparison.

I guess you're saying, "they had to" meaning they should've seen the need and provided it? I'll say this to that (imagined) take; plenty of useful software was made without it, and they got the job done when they knew the absolute most about what a good solution would need. I totally understand being annoyed at the fact that this is the story of every evolution in Go, but I genuinely think they're picking good implementations when they decide on them.

hnlmorg 22 minutes ago | parent [-]

> What is your critique of their approach?

It’s half arsed, brittle and far from user friendly.

> Is it not the case that `go get` is the only one which doesn't even provide a way for the person downloading to run the downloaded code until it is actually executed by the consuming codebase?

If you’ve added the package to your imported then odds are your next step is going to build it. Thus negating any benefit.

I think the real issue is malicious packages entering package ecosystems. Whether your package manage executes on downloads or not is moot because you’ve still got untrusted code sat in your project imports, just waiting to be accidentally executed.

> I guess you're saying, "they had to" meaning they should've seen the need and provided it? I'll say this to that (imagined) take; plenty of useful software was made without it, and they got the job done when they knew the absolute most about what a good solution would need. I totally understand being annoyed at the fact that this is the story of every evolution in Go.

I think you’re being too charitable here. I think Russ Cox just didn’t want a package manager because C doesn’t have one. But ended up relenting after everyone nagged the Go team for years afterwards.

And really what they built was the bare minimum to manage package version pinning and updates. But it has none of the visibility that central package repositories have. So how do you know if a Go package has been compromised when the only source of truth is the compromised origin?

leecommamichael 12 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Thanks for the thorough reply. I personally haven't experienced brittleness/unfriendliness, but I have only written around 10k lines of Go. Not exactly a power user, but I like to think I understand it.

> If you’ve added the package to your imported then odds are your next step is going to build it. Thus negating any benefit.

I actually think this is the benefit! I don't need to go to a website to see what changed, I can just have a look at the code. The best dependencies have a changelog. Ideally I can look at a diff.

> I think you’re being too charitable here. I think Russ Cox just didn’t want a package manager because C doesn’t have one. But ended up relenting after everyone nagged the Go team for years afterwards.

That's entirely possible.

> So how do you know if a Go package has been compromised when the only source of truth is the compromised origin?

Fair point, and probably worse in this future we're in now that NIST is drowning in CVEs and has turned away from some share of them.

leecommamichael 8 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

Ultimately I think devs need to think about their dependencies and decide which ones get pinned and a serious review before pulling. If the thing has got binaries, it gets a serious review. If it does anything with cryptography, it gets a serious review... etc.

I don't think automatic updating is a good idea at all. It's just the honor-system, and trust is a security flaw.

Ygg2 an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Spoiler alert! JavaScript has no language provided package manager.

If Odin gets moderately successful someone will probably reinvent it.

leecommamichael an hour ago | parent [-]

NPM came along in 2010, Javascript was huge before that.

It was only when people wanted a common approach to shipping both in browser and "native" that this glitch happened. I believe a standard library and "batteries" would have abated it entirely or resulted in a slightly less-bad situation. I do think Cargo is a slightly less-bad situation in many ways, and that it can be done better.