| ▲ | EMIRELADERO 10 hours ago |
| > "These changes resolve Apple’s disagreements with the Commission over business terms and alternative distribution." [...] > "The Core Technology Fee, a per-install fee for developers that achieve extraordinary scale, will be replaced by the Core Technology Commission, a simple 5 percent commission on digital transactions in apps distributed outside the App Store. The new terms also eliminate the initial acquisition fee and store services fee." [...] > "In order to keep EU users as safe as possible, Apple will continue to require every alternatively distributed app to go through Notarization — a baseline review focused on basic functionality and protection from serious threats." This is bonkers, I can't believe the EU Commission agreed to it. The main issue that the DMA was about still remains: Apple retains ultimate control over app developers' dealings with users. The status quo that the EU should have pushed for, and which Article 6(7) of the DMA requires, is one where a developer can distribute iOS apps to users without ever entering into any contractual relationship with Apple. The OS APIs that most apps use are already paid-for by the user when they buy the device. Apple wants to double-dip and charge developers for the value that the users already have by virtue of owning their iDevices with all the necessary iOS paraphernalia in them. Of course, Xcode and the SDK overall aren't paid for by users, so Apple can charge devs for it, but so far there's no way to signal to Apple that you have opted out of using their SDK and have the fee waived. Not that it would be enough anyway, since even having to interact with Apple in any capacity to be an iOS dev is the main problem. |
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| ▲ | ben_w 10 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| > The OS APIs that most apps use are already paid-for by the user when they buy the device. That argument would assume no cost for upgrades. I remember having to buy new operating systems. That said, looking at the state of recent OS upgrades, I think I'd have been happy if the only changes over the last, oh, decade or so, had been purely security updates. But these too are not free. > Apple wants to double-dip and charge developers for the value that the users already have by virtue of owning their iDevices with all the necessary iOS paraphernalia in them. Yes, obviously they want to make as much money as possible, and this is at odds with consumer interests. That said, I have the impression that for many users, the benefit is the app ecosystem, while for many developers the benefit is the users. Endless marketing cycles of new-shiny-API for one, and new-shiny-UI for the other. That said, power-law distribution, so "the app ecosystem" is probably mostly Meta, Google, Amazon, as specific names, then becoming somewhat vague with "whatever work mandated of Slack or MS teams", "their bank", "three or four supermarkets", and "a taxi firm who may or may not be Uber". |
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| ▲ | an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | Despegar 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | >Yes, obviously they want to make as much money as possible, and this is at odds with consumer interests. It's not at odds with consumer interests at all. It's at odds with developer interests. It would actually cost consumers more if Apple couldn't make any money from developers directly because they'd try to make it up by charging more for Apple products. Developers might prefer to shift the burden to consumers's wallets instead of their own, but overall this model is beneficial for everyone involved. It is also better for the environment because directly making money from developers incentivizes them to support old hardware for as long as possible. | | |
| ▲ | xp84 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | > because they'd try to make it up by charging more for Apple products.
> Developers might prefer to shift the burden to consumers's wallets I vigorously disagree with this. It sounds very confused about economics, specifically prices. Apple, as every market actor does, charges the absolute maximum price the market will bear for their products and not a penny less. They cannot "make up" any money that comes from unrelated parties (such as their Google payola for search, or their casino games for children IAP revenue) by raising product prices. If they could raise their product prices and have that be profit-positive, they would have done it yesterday. They could raise prices on phones to make up for a hypothetical "free iCloud+," because the same consumers are the other party in both those transactions so presumably many people would see that the more expensive phone justifies free iCloud services. Apple doesn't set its prices by saying "OK, we need exactly 83 billion dollars in net income this year, so given that our products cost us 233 billion dollars to make and we have 54 billion dollars in expenses, we need 383 billion in revenue, so now let's set prices of each product to target this." That $83 billion in net income is just the number they are able to make last year with the prices being what the market would bear. Trying to increase prices to hold it there when a downfall in other revenue happens would depress sales. | | |
| ▲ | Despegar 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | >Apple, as every market actor does, charges the absolute maximum price the market will bear for their products and not a penny less. That price is much lower than it otherwise would be if the only revenue Apple could generate came from hardware. The opposite incentive exists today, where it actually benefits Apple to sell cheaper razors to make more money from the razor blades. | | |
| ▲ | rekoil 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | Only if consumers would pay it, which isn’t something we can really know. |
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| ▲ | noja 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I'd like to see Windows 2000 as a base taken by Anthropic and beefed up with security stuff. | | |
| ▲ | 21 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | ben_w 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I'm kinda tempted to do that to classic MacOS. But only kinda, because copyright and trademarks are things, and I don't want to risk incurring the wrath of any legal team, let alone a trillion dollar corporation's legal team. | | | |
| ▲ | xp84 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Maybe ReactOS can be a good base for this actually becoming a reality! | | |
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| ▲ | dannyw 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The EU likes the power to delist apps by compelling two companies (Apple and Google) to do so. Android is moving to the same, KYC (credit or debit card; no prepaid cards) with play store required for APK distribution |
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| ▲ | rstat1 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The Play Store is not required for APK distribution. Not now, nor has it ever been. | | | |
| ▲ | xp84 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | yeah, I think for as much as many of us hold out hope that the EU will break the back of these brazen monopolists, there's a limit to their friendliness to the actual interests of consumer freedom when it's got to be balanced by their love of censorship. | | |
| ▲ | ahartmetz 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Whatever censorship exists in the EU is really inconsequential. What bothers me is the spying. |
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| ▲ | SiempreViernes 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > In a statement, a Commission spokesperson welcomed Apple’s changes to its business terms, which it said “follow a close dialogue between the Commission and Apple”. > “Following today’s announcement, the Commission will monitor Apple’s effective implementation of the new terms,” it added. There's nothing on the commission webpage, all I could find is the above comments from a spokesperson which aren't hugely definitive. I think we can take the mention of dialogue to mean the commission thinks the new rules are a step forward enough that wider civil society can have a look and maybe kick up a stink, and the absence of press release coordinated with Apple as evidence the procedure is still open |
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| ▲ | chrisjj 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > I can't believe the EU Commission agreed to it. This press release conspicuously lacks any suggestion that it did agree. |
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| ▲ | gumby271 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| That feels like a crazy definition of Notarization there Apple. |
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| ▲ | mnewme 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Well I think this it at least improvement to the status quo |
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| ▲ | lapcat 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > there's no way to signal to Apple that you have opted out of using their SDK How do you not use their SDK? |
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| ▲ | burnte 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > How do you not use their SDK? The first third party iPhone apps existed before the SDK existed. iPhone OS was jailbroken pretty quickly and apps emerged fast. SDKs are nice references and tools but the're not the only way to skin a cat. | | |
| ▲ | lapcat 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | This is not a useful distinction. The API existed and was used by Apple apps and by jailbreak apps. In fact Scott Forstall intentionally prepared iOS to have third-party apps. The API was just not public yet. If you think the header files are the thing that Apple thinks is worth of a cut of app revenue, I think you're way off base. It's the technology, whether you access it with permission or not. | | |
| ▲ | EMIRELADERO 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Right, and my point is that the technology is already fully paid for by the user. By "the SDK" I meant the dev environment stuff, not the API base on the phone. | | |
| ▲ | stouset 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > the technology is already fully paid for by the user This seems like a very large and unfounded assumption on your part, particularly in a world where we no longer pay for Apple operating systems or their updates. | |
| ▲ | lapcat an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Right, and my point is that the technology is already fully paid for by the user. That's your claim. Neither Apple nor the EU appear to agree. Nor do US courts appear to agree in the Epic v. Apple trial. Apple itself has to pay license fees for some technologies in iPhone, and those licenses do not automatically extend to third-party developers via the consumer. It's not a license agreement with the consumer. When you said, "there's no way to signal to Apple that you have opted out of using their SDK and have the fee waived", which fee did you mean exactly? The quote in your comment refers to the Core Technology Commission, which is a percentage of app revenue. There's also the $99 developer program fee, which all App Store developers pay. I know that some developers are annoyed by the $99 fee, but for professional iOS developers, $99 is a drop in the bucket, and the revenue % cut is the vastly larger and more important thing. So if by "the SDK" you mean only the header files and such, that seems like mostly a red herring to me, and if you were allowed to use the technology for free, then there wouldn't be much reason for Apple to charge for the SDK. And indeed, Xcode has always been available for free. https://apps.apple.com/app/xcode/id497799835?mt=12 | | |
| ▲ | EMIRELADERO an hour ago | parent [-] | | > That's your claim. Neither Apple nor the EU appear to agree. Nor do US courts appear to agree in the Epic v. Apple trial. This point was never raised in any of those cases. Apple just did aome hand-waving "IP compensation" justification and everyone just went along with it, because the case wasn't about that particular point. > Apple itself has to pay license fees for some technologies in iPhone And such costs are more than made up for by hardware sales. The only reason this persists is because of greed, not because it's essential to profitability. > and those licenses do not automatically extend to third-party developers via the consumer. It's not a license agreement with the consumer. They don't need to extend them because the consumer is already entitled to use those technologies merely by having purchased the device. That entitlement comes from the fact that they get legal copies of the technologies when they take posession of the hardware. IP rights regulate distribution, not consumption. As for the rest of your comment, the overall problem is the requiremet to deal with Apple at all, the $99 fee and the 5% commission are just the cherry on top. | | |
| ▲ | lapcat 8 minutes ago | parent [-] | | > This point was never raised in any of those cases. Apple just did aome hand-waving "IP compensation" justification and everyone just went along with it, because the case wasn't about that particular point. I strongly disagree with your interpretation. IP compensation was essential in both of these cases, and everyone went along with it because they didn't dispute Apple's rights. > IP rights regulate distribution, not consumption. It's all about distribution. A consumer can download Xcode, build their own app, install the app on their own device, and use Apple API, all for free. What they can't do is distribute that app to other consumers. The developer tools are relatively unimportant, which is why Apple gives them away. Distribution is everything. > As for the rest of your comment, the overall problem is the requiremet to deal with Apple at all, the $99 fee and the 5% commission are just the cherry on top. This doesn't answer my question. I asked which fee needed to be waived. There is no fee to get Xcode, so there's nothing to be waived by opting out. |
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| ▲ | EMIRELADERO 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Nowadays with LLMs people could probably patch up some FOSS SDK that perfectly replicates the original's functionality without infringing Apple's copyrights. If the DMA was enforced correctly this would have already happened. | | |
| ▲ | lapcat 10 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Nowadays with LLMs people could probably patch up some FOSS SDK that perfectly replicates the original's functionality without infringing Apple's copyrights. I don't intend to insult you, but as an iOS developer myself I have serious doubts about whether you have any expertise in the subject you're talking about here. | | |
| ▲ | yjftsjthsd-h 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | If you don't intend it as an insult, you might try providing literally any substance to your argument rather than just lobbing ad hominems. | |
| ▲ | EMIRELADERO 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I didn't mean to imply that this would be a vibe-coded slop project. I'm no LLM evangelizer and hate the hype train as much as any competent dev. The truth is though that LLMs are uniquely suited for work of this kind, and a team that knows what they're doing could make short work of the whole thing much faster. | | |
| ▲ | lapcat 10 hours ago | parent [-] | | > I didn't mean to imply that this would be a vibe-coded slop project. That's not really the issue. LLM participation is a red herring. The issue is "replicates the original's functionality". | | |
| ▲ | EMIRELADERO 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | What would be so outlandish about that? | | |
| ▲ | lapcat 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | I'm not going to argue with you, because I continue to suspect that you have no iOS development experience and are just making hand-wavy claims with no empirical basis. | | |
| ▲ | EMIRELADERO 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | ? It's you who has started to argue by replying to my comment in the first place. | | |
| ▲ | lapcat 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | I asked a question: "How do you not use their SDK?" Your answer seemed nonsensical to me. What I meant, though, is that I'm not going to argue about a specific point, the viability of "some FOSS SDK that perfectly replicates the original's functionality." If you don't even have any experience with iOS development, then you have no basis for making any claims about that subject, and thus I'm not going to bother explaining "What would be so outlandish about that?" In any case, most iOS devs don't want to opt out of using the SDK. That would not be a particularly attractive route for making iOS apps. What I want as an iOS dev is the same freedom of software distribution that we have on macOS. | | |
| ▲ | EMIRELADERO 9 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > If you don't even have any experience with iOS development, then you have no basis for making any claims about that subject, and thus I'm not going to bother explaining "What would be so outlandish about that?" The basis for my claims about the subject is my knowledge of computing and development in general. I dipped my toes into iOS dev a few times and there's nothing that seemed to set it apart from any other SDK situation beyond Apple's restrictions, at least nothing that would make my claim outlandish. | |
| ▲ | toukale 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | That is never going to happen. We will never get the same freedom we enjoy on pc's again for the simple fact it benefits both the platform owners and governments to have a simple centralize company in this case (Apple & Google) to go to get what they want. The freedom we have on pc's is too much of a wild west and not enough control that both governments and platform owners like. As much as we may want to it will never happen for those reasons. | |
| ▲ | chichichi 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I think if you adjusted his statement to be - not use apple’s “everything” software ecosystem - it would be possible. Core device apis yes, everything else, maybe not? I think we could roll our own UI - I think we can roll our own payment systems - I think we could roll our own media display. For the primary iOS app I work on I need vulkan, gps, touches camera, sound, and phone rotation. (And standard os services) I don’t need anything else. |
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| ▲ | realusername 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Personnally I use Flutter which has a very minimal use of their SDK. Basically enough to render inputs to a gpu accelerated surface. And I'd argue that this is a core OS feature that you expect on any modern OS. | | |
| ▲ | Someone 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Flutter which has a very minimal use of their SDK. > Basically enough to render inputs to a gpu accelerated surface. I suspect it uses much more so that it can support - audio - file I/O - accessibility - … | | |
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| ▲ | tiahura 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Maybe one of the commissioners tried Android? |
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| ▲ | EMIRELADERO 10 hours ago | parent [-] | | The feeling of security and tightness on iOS does not come from its monopolistic restrictions on 3rd-party devs. |
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| ▲ | carlosjobim 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| > Apple retains ultimate control over app developers' dealings with users. The app developers can offer their own line of devices on the market. Users are free to choose a different manufacturer. Apple doesn't hold anybody in chains, it is people and developers who are coming to them. Or should people to restaurants and demand to be allowed to order food delivery from other places to their tables, and bring their own drinks? Honestly, I think that most hackers and EU bureaucrats think that it would be a splendid idea. |
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| ▲ | EMIRELADERO 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Or should people to restaurants and demand to be allowed to order food delivery from other places to their tables, and bring their own drinks? A restaurant is private property, you're just a customer in someone else's turf. An iPhone (and the individual iOS copy inside it that provides the advertised functionality) is the intellectual property of Apple, but also the private property of the user, and it is the traditional property ownership status that determines who gets to interact with the functionality. Apple is unfairly forcing themselves into the dev-user relationship here. | | |
| ▲ | carlosjobim 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | An iPhone is the private property of the user, and if you are skilled enough you can jailbreak it and there is nothing Apple can do about it. If you're not skilled to do it, then that's your own problem. No court of law would go against you if you took a soldering iron and your expertise to change your iPhone in any way you please. Apple shouldn't be obliged to help you in those efforts, though. > Apple is unfairly forcing themselves into the dev-user relationship here. Who was forced to buy an iPhone? Who was forced to develop for Apple devices? | | |
| ▲ | fl0id 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | So if you were forced to keep f.e. a door lock on your house (that you bought), because as part of the purchase the developer required it - would you be fine with it too? You could technically jail break it... | |
| ▲ | EMIRELADERO 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > An iPhone is the private property of the user, and if you are skilled enough you can jailbreak it and there is nothing Apple can do about it. If you're not skilled to do it, then that's your own problem. No, because Apple chooses to prevent me from controlling the device the way I want. The skill involved is about finding holes in the system, not in enabling an "expert mode" or something. The imbalance of power is itself a problem. A hardware manufacturer should be legally prohibited from designing their devices in such a way that they retain more control over them post-sale than the actual owner. Device ownership should mean maximum control over code execution. > Who was forced to buy an iPhone? Nobody, but I'm not a free market absolutist. > Who was forced to develop for Apple devices? Every developer who wants to cater to ~half of the mobile user population (~85% if it's young Americans) | | |
| ▲ | chongli 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I assume an expert mode (where you can sideload anything you want) is what you are asking for. To that I raise the standard objection: how do you protect grandma from having a criminal social-engineer her into enabling expert mode and then having her sideload malware onto her device? | | |
| ▲ | rstat1 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | I mean if you're gonna stop people from owning their device and doing what they want with it just because of the possibility of crime occurring then their are quite a few more things that probably should also no longer exist because of their potential use in crime. That's a pretty ridiculous argument if you ask me. |
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| ▲ | carlosjobim 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > No, because Apple chooses to prevent me from controlling the device the way I want. They have no power to prevent you from doing anything you want to your device. Just like Ford has no power to stop me from modifying my truck in any way I want. Or any other product from any other company. Not helping you is something different, that's not preventing. > Every developer who wants to cater to ~half of the mobile user population (~85% if it's young Americans) That's a choice for them to make. You might then say that Coca-Cola is forcing supermarkets to carry their product because customers want to buy them. | | |
| ▲ | EMIRELADERO 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | > They have no power to prevent you from doing anything you want to your device. Just like Ford has no power to stop me from modifying my truck in any way I want. Or any other product from any other company. They have the technical ability to prevent me from running the code I want, and they exercise that ability for that purpose. They're not a passive actor in this situation, they explicitly block me from doing things that they themselves can do, even after the sale. Again, this should be a concern merely because of the power imbalance. > That's a choice for them to make. You might then say that Coca-Cola is forcing supermarkets to carry their product because customers want to buy them. Not the same thing at all. The mobile app market is a top-level one in a way the Coca-Cola one is not. Apple is controlling a huge amount of commerce for products that have nothing to do with them, besides being digital accessories to iDevices. The better analogy would be: there are only two store companies in the entire US. If you want to sell any product at all, of any category (silverware, food, lawnmowers etc) you must contract with them and there's no other way, and anyone who wants to purchase any product whatsoever only has those two options. |
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