| ▲ | cosmic_cheese a day ago |
| The situation is absolutely awful for anybody who needs significant memory or storage (or devices incorporating such). Even people who think they have enough for the next few years already could end up with an unpleasant surprise if they e.g. have a stick or two of RAM go bad or a GPU fry. I have a few machines with aging sticks that I'm hoping will manage to hold out until when/if things improve. |
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| ▲ | datakan a day ago | parent | next [-] |
| I'm saving a ton of money by simply not upgrading. I used to do upgrades every 1-2 years just to keep up on things, pass the old box down to my son or otherwise donate it. Now I intend to keep my current setup for 7+ years. Its 2 years old next month. I may even stay with it longer. I just see no reason to upgrade with things how they are. I considered a Mac Studio a couple months ago. Price was up but might have pulled the trigger if not for the delivery date that was almost 4 months out. Sale lost. I suspect a lot of people are like me right now and we'll start seeing significant drops in consumer spending on electronics the next 2-4 years minimum. |
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| ▲ | preg_match 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I think it's probably for the best, the hyperconsumerism around electronics was getting out of hand. Computers are fast and have been fast for a while now. An iPhone 12 is probably more than fine to do iPhone things, if Apple didn't sabotage their old phones with poorly-written poor-performance software. | | |
| ▲ | florakel 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Can you provide evidence for your claim? Most people take this statement at face value and I don’t understand why. I do some volunteer work supporting elderly people that have issues adapting to a digital only world and I am always pleasantly surprised by the performance of their old iPhones all the way down to the 8 (old phones they get from their kids) Also the coming iOS 27 release supposedly has some big performance improvements for all supported models that people have verified in the beta releases even with the iPhone 11:
https://www.macworld.com/article/3160623/apple-finally-figur... | | |
| ▲ | mvdtnz 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Apple is known to slow older devices intentionally. They have admitted it. https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-67911517 | | |
| ▲ | robin_reala 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | That’s the literal truth, but the subtlety behind it was that CPU spikes combined with low voltage batteries were causing phones to shut off. Apple’s slowing down the phone down was nominally because customers prefer slightly slower phones to phones that shut off unexpectedly. Should they have announced this as a feature and had a toggle switch to allow users that preferred the option to disable it? Of course. But I don’t necessarily think they did the wrong thing. |
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| ▲ | Panino 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Computers are fast and have been fast for a while now. Absolutely. The only reason I want to upgrade to an iPhone 18 next year is because the 16 doesn't have MIE (Memory Integrity Enforcement) and it feels ridiculous to upgrade so quickly to the 17, which does have MIE. Same thing with a Neo 2. But mostly I buy surplus gear. I've saved a small fortune this way and 8% compounding returns (VT and chill) will help me retire early. | |
| ▲ | sleight42 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | And Apple will continue to because they have to sell more devices to keep customers interested. | |
| ▲ | amenghra 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Apple could release a new on-device LLM model every year and keep the hyperconsumerism going... | |
| ▲ | Noaidi 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I have a MacBook M1 and I recently had to downgrade from Tahoe to Sequoia. Why? First of all they force you to download 7 GB of AI training when you’re not even using their AI. And secondly on Tahoe just watching a video with nothing else running off-line my MacBook was asking for 7 W of power. On Sequoia that drops down to 2 W maybe three. It’s sad to think they think of themselves as an environmental company, I don’t know if they do, but this update to Sequoia literally doubled the amount of M1 max that are running on the planet in terms of power use. |
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| ▲ | seanp2k2 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | There also seems to have been a major shift in strategy from AMD / Intel / Apple / NVidia due to this, as I was used to CPU / GPU / chipset upgrades coming out more regularly with double-digit percentage improvements each year, but that seems to be basically over for the consumer space now that everyone is just trying to build as much AI hardware as fast as possible for enterprise markets. I also used to rebuild my desktop every 1-2 years and upgrade laptops every 2-3 years, but I'm currently a bit past that and have no plans to refresh anything in the near future. I'll probably wait another CPU and GPU generation or two to even consider it, especially with prices being this ridiculous. I'm fully anticipating AI hardware demand to dry up once Anthropic and OpenAI start tanking financially in a few years after missing earnings and investors and banks wanting their loans paid back combined with more folks realizing that LLMs cannot achieve AGI. After that, I would hope that the demand that's driving this pricing spike will fall along with it, but I also fully expect hardware companies to be as greedy as possible, so maybe a 32TB HDD will just cost $1000 going forward and the era of "a decent gaming PC made up of the tier of components one step below TOTL costs ~$2000" we've been in since the 1990s is fully over, and it's just going to be more like $5k going forward. | | |
| ▲ | plqbfbv a day ago | parent | next [-] | | > There also seems to have been a major shift in strategy from AMD / Intel / Apple / NVidia due to this, as I was used to CPU / GPU / chipset upgrades coming out more regularly with double-digit percentage improvements each year, but that seems to be basically over for the consumer space now that everyone is just trying to build as much AI hardware as fast as possible for enterprise markets. I believe all of them realized nobody really needs more than 16c32t on a desktop, and architectural changes nowadays can only go so far to bump performance. The biggest changes across generations in the last ~5 years were the introduction of specialized instructions for wider vectors (AVX512/AVX2, and even then you need specialized workloads to use them), bigger L3 caches and/or efficiency cores to lower power draw. The double-digits gains recently were in memory bandwidth, frequency and locality, because you can make a 5GHz CPU and make it go 10% faster than the previous generation, but you also need to supply the extra data for the CPU to make useful work so that it's not data-starved. > I also used to rebuild my desktop every 1-2 years and upgrade laptops every 2-3 years, but I'm currently a bit past that and have no plans to refresh anything in the near future. I'll probably wait another CPU and GPU generation or two to even consider it, especially with prices being this ridiculous. I built my desktop in 2019 (right before the COVID madness, luckily) and I was also used to 1-3 year cycles. I upgraded the CPU and GPU since then, but the performance is still that of a workstation, even though perhaps a little bit behind in pure single-core benchmarks. I plan to keep this until either CPU, RAM or MB fall out (hopefully another 5y at least), and then I'll make a huge leap, instead of making 4x smaller ones which deliver little uplift anyway. | | |
| ▲ | atiedebee 13 hours ago | parent [-] | | The biggest changes across generations in the last ~5 years were the introduction of specialized instructions for wider vectors (AVX512/AVX2, and even then you need specialized workloads to use them), [...] AVX2 is actually 13 years (!) old already (first appearing in Intel's Haswell architecture). AVX512 is also nearly 10 years old right now, but not many CPUs actually support it (none of the devices I own support it) |
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| ▲ | Aditya_Garg a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Are you willing to short anthropic and openai on your beliefs? Would love to be on the other side of this trade. | | |
| ▲ | dietr1ch 11 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | People think that shorting is an easy way of getting rich when you think a stock will go down, but even if you know it will, getting the timing wrong on it is catastrophic as you'll get unbounded loses while the market fails to correct the issues you are betting against | | |
| ▲ | Sohcahtoa82 23 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | As the saying goes...the market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent. | |
| ▲ | allendoerfer 34 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | "I may have been early, but I am not wrong!" "It's the same thing, Michael! It's the same thing!" |
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| ▲ | AngryData 21 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | "Sometime in the next few years" is not anywhere near narrow enough of a window to start putting shorts on stock prices. | |
| ▲ | pjc50 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I wouldn't even short Bitcoin, and that's been on the way out since the AI rise. | |
| ▲ | ReptileMan 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Somewhat hard to short non public company, don't you think? |
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| ▲ | nickjj a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I'm running a 12 year old i5 3.2ghz CPU with 16 GB of memory, an SSD and an AMD RX 480 (8 GB) GPU. Currently using a 100% scaled 4k monitor and a 2nd 1440p monitor. I keep the machine on 24 / 7. It's great for software development along with video + image editing and casual gaming. Everything feels fast and snappy. I will use this until the hardware stops. There's a 0% chance I'd buy hardware at the current prices. | | |
| ▲ | cosmic_cheese a day ago | parent [-] | | It really depends on what the task at hand is. I have a baseline iMac Pro and custom built tower with similar specs (3.2Ghz Xeon W-2140B, 32GB RAM, Vega Pro 56 and i7-6700K, 32GB, 5700XT respectively) and they're both perfectly responsive. For many day to day things the difference between them and newer machines is negligible. For other things, my 5950X tower and M5 Max MBP run circles around them. Both the 5950X tower and M5 Max MBP are deep into diminishing returns territory regardless, however. Aside from some extreme niche workloads like LLMs I can't imagine needing anything more powerful. They both have a ridiculous amount of headroom for the overwhelming majority of anything most people might want a computer for. | | |
| ▲ | nickjj 21 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Yep, I have an M4 MBP company issued laptop for work and in my day to day there's not a enough of a performance win to feel like I'm missing out for most tasks. Sure, the Slack web app might initially load half a second faster since there's a lot of CPU bound JS executing but generally speaking I never feel like "wow this sucks" on my main machine. It's kind of the opposite, for a number of things my desktop machine feels faster than the MBP for overall "using the computer", with development heavy tasks (running Docker based web apps, browser tabs, various tools open, streaming music, etc.). It was like that when I ran Windows 10 Pro with WSL 2 and now native Linux with Arch + niri. Even CPU bound tasks on my 12 year old box that I do a lot, such as editing a blog post on a static site with Hugo takes ~100ms to get live reloading with over 1,000 posts and drafts. I'm sure if I were constantly doing huge CPU bound tasks I'd have issues but I don't have that use case. After recording 500+ videos, encoding isn't a problem too. If I record a 30 min video, it takes ~20 minutes to render but it's so easy to fit that into other areas of my life, like I'll record + edit a video and then render it while I walk. | |
| ▲ | harhargange 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I recently built a pc with 5950x and 7900xt. What do you mean by diminishing returns? |
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| ▲ | recursivedoubts a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I have a 2021 M1 pro and see no reason to upgrade it... ever? I do web & general java work on it and it's plenty fast even using a memory hog like IntelliJ (which is typically disk bound anyway). Claude tells me that a new macbook would feel about 1.8x faster in my CPU-bound cases, which is not common. If memory prices returned to normal and if local inference gets over the hump, I could see upgrading for local AI agents, but I'm fine waiting for a good long while on that. I say all this as someone who, five years ago, was a perpetual upgrader: immediately bought new product and got excited for next product. Wonder if the future will see the end of that culture in tech and, looking back, it was a little silly and wasteful anyway. I'm also using an iPhone mini 12 and it's fine. | | |
| ▲ | jdswain a day ago | parent [-] | | I too have an M1 Pro and it does everything I need to do. I bought it in 2023, so it's 'only' 3.5 years old now. Maybe this is the tipping point where hardware companies can't rely on the upgrade cycle for sales any more. I've always upgraded at least every three years, but with the combination of high RAM prices and good enough performance from an older machine, there is no need to. |
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| ▲ | revolvingthrow a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | There isn't much to upgrade to if all you want is a desktop for gaming, a non-workstation work box or just a decent laptop. Much like smartphones, there just hasn't been much innovation of late. A midrange gaming desktop from mid 2023, something like rtx 4070 and ryzen 7800x3d, can still play pretty much any video game on max settings and high framerate at 1440p, and has sufficient performance for most workstation-esque tasks as long as you have enough ram. Similarly, the only thing my spare macbook m2 lacks compared to m5 is hardware av1 decoding - the performance is worse, but I don't really notice it in normal usage, and macOS 27 runs perfectly well on it. Local AI will crush any machine, of course, and if you need a 512gb ram box you'll probably need to sell both kidneys, but you're well past the average consumer territory with those. So, fingers crossed nothing breaks down and that some of the funny money goes into R&D which will eventually trickle down to consumer devices in a few years (16TB gum stick SSDs at sane prices pretty please) instead of endless datacenter GPUs and SSDs that will be tossed into a shredder in x years. | |
| ▲ | pseudohadamard 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | My desktop PC turns 20 next year. I've never seen any need to upgrade it, went out of my way to build it with silent parts and it rarely if ever goes outside a single-digit CPU load (before anyone asks, software development and a bit of CAD work). I'll upgrade it when something in it physically fails, which means I'll need to replace it with new hardware with 5-10x the specs just to get the same performance. My laptop is currently about two years into a typically 5-year lifespan, limited by when the keys start to fail rather than any need to upgrade it just because. The RAM in it is now worth more than the rest of the laptop. |
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| ▲ | rwyinuse 43 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| This is one of the rare situations where an out-of-control homelab & PC building hobby is actually useful. With over 250GB of RAM & 90TB of storage I will be fine for a while, especially as long as DDR4 era machines remain relevant. |
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| ▲ | bigbuppo 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Yeah, it really sucks I can't even afford a computer that can have two Chrome tabs open these days. |
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| ▲ | forinti a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I've been using computers for more than 40 years now and the one component I have never seen fail is RAM. All the other bits in a computer I've seen fail. |
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| ▲ | Sohcahtoa82 11 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | I've had a RAM stick fail. Granted, I've been building my own computer for 30 years and I've only seen it happen ONCE. But I've seen plenty of other failures: - Two hard drives -- One got dropped on the floor, so it was no surprise, the other was showing degraded performance and SMART showed some scary numbers and I was able to replace it before I lost data. - One GPU, replaced under warranty. - One AIO water cooler, replaced under warranty. Somehow, the water vanished from the loop. I'm guessing a microscopic leak that evaporated as fast as it leaked. - Two power supplies -- One randomly exploded. Just started making popping noises and shooting sparks out the back. At autopsy, I determined that the fan failed (it was hard to spin manually) and it overheated. The other was just being overloaded. I had just gotten a new GPU and the PSU wasn't big enough for it. - Several case fans. Never seen a CPU or motherboard failure, even when my AIO water cooler was failing and my CPU was constantly at thermal limits. Never had an SSD/NVMe failure. | |
| ▲ | cosmic_cheese a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Anecdotally, RAM failures are more common than they used to be in previous decades, I assume due to increased capacities and smaller process nodes. Looser manufacturing standards may also play a part. The component category I've never seen fail is CPU. | | |
| ▲ | seanp2k2 a day ago | parent | next [-] | | I've worked in and around datacenters for a few decades now and I've seen pretty much everything fail, but power supplies in particular do so at a higher rate than I expected. I've had one literally start smoking in my home office recently too. Luckily, it didn't damage any components, but it was pretty dramatic and abrupt -- just powered on my desktop and got nothing but a fog machine coming out of the rear fan until I yanked the power cord a few seconds later. | | |
| ▲ | davkan a day ago | parent | next [-] | | My evga 1000w has been going strong for 11 years now. Cheaper power supplies fail often but if you buy quality and oversized they’ll outlast all your other components as they don’t become outdated. | | |
| ▲ | milesvp a day ago | parent | next [-] | | It’s the caps that fail. Electrolytic caps have the highest failure rate of any passive component. My team tries to avoid them in our designs as much as possible. But you’re right, caps in a good design can easily last 20 years, making a power supply the longest lasting component of most builds. | | |
| ▲ | davkan a day ago | parent [-] | | My go to source for reviews was always jonnyguru.com but he closed up shop. Not sure who’s actually doing in-depth performance and component reviews these days. |
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| ▲ | sva_ 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Had the EVGA 1000w fail on me. It did not fail dramatically though, rather it refused to output high power. Got a replacement under warranty |
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| ▲ | copperx 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | What brand of power supply? |
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| ▲ | derf_ 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > The component category I've never seen fail is CPU. The CPU can fail if the heatsink falls off! That is something that happens (I've had one come off in my hand that was being held on by nothing but hopes and dreams, fortunately not while the CPU was powered on). More likely in a desktop tower form factor. | |
| ▲ | forinti a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | You didn't hold on to your Pentium 4 long enough. :-) | | |
| ▲ | cosmic_cheese a day ago | parent | next [-] | | My main machines were PowerPC G3s/G4s/G5s back then with the P4 boxes I had taking secondary/tertiary roles, so that lines up. | |
| ▲ | dijit a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Anecdatum, but mine still works :D |
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| ▲ | drum55 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Most devices never test their memory and don’t have ecc, so you generally never know. Random instability can be fixed by restarting and your program not being in an area with bad bits anymore. | |
| ▲ | trashface 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I had a 2012 mac book pro that burned out 2 different crucial memory sticks. Would have bricked the machine if it was the soldered-on type, but it was the last model apple sold that have swappable memory. Crucial had a lifetime warranty so they replaced them for free. I used to game on it and I think the design just couldn't handle the cpu and dgpu being active for long periods, it would get extremely hot in the area close to where the memory was. | |
| ▲ | zymhan 24 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You may literally be the only one. | |
| ▲ | icedchai a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I recently had part of a 32 gig DIMM go bad on a 128 gig system. One of the larger VMs was spontaneously rebooting for no apparent reason. I was able to find the addresses with MemTest86 and map out 512 megs of the affected DIMM with the Linux kernel memmap option. | | |
| ▲ | harhargange 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | So you can still use the hardware via software fix? | | |
| ▲ | icedchai an hour ago | parent [-] | | Correct! Basically, I excluded the bad range so Linux doesn't touch it. It's been stable for weeks now. I should send the DIMM back under warranty. |
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| ▲ | dgellow a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Well, you’re lucky. I had to change laptop memory sticks a few times. Though not since they are soldered directly to the motherboard | |
| ▲ | dilyevsky 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | on older PC bios would perform a memory test - you may remember those - and that's where it would mark a bunch of pages dead/unusuable and it was not uncommon at all. | |
| ▲ | deadbunny a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Same, it's either bad to begin with or it's basically immortal. | |
| ▲ | kasabali a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | This isn’t true anymore beginning with DDR4 speeds. | |
| ▲ | rwyinuse 41 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Interesting, I've had two fail already in much shorter time. One was brand new, another quite old. | |
| ▲ | BenjiWiebe a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I've seen some fail. Might have had to do with the fact that the computers were literally flooded (river came up faster than the sandbaggers could keep up) while running. | | |
| ▲ | forinti a day ago | parent [-] | | I've seen computers brought back to life after flooding by lying in rice for a week, but they weren't turned on when the water hit (and not all survived). |
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| ▲ | somerandomqaguy a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I've had a few RAM sticks fail, but the ECC usually caught it first. Also had one case that somehow the stick slightly unseated itself; dunno how but it was out of service for months until someone opened it up and reseated the stick. ...granted though I've also seen a backpane on a server fail. I didn't think that was even possible until that point. | |
| ▲ | iwontberude 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [dead] |
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| ▲ | Foobar8568 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I bought a prebuilt with a 5090 a little over than one month ago, whole system was on sales. The cost of the prebuilt is now lower than today 5090 price. |
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| ▲ | ls612 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I built my machine in 2022 with 64GB of memory and upgraded to a 4090 at MSRP in 2023 so at this point I'm good but I fear the back end of the bathtub curve. I currently expect to have to hold on until 2029 and at that point the mobo and CPU will be 7 years old, and the GPU almost 6. |
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| ▲ | cyanydeez 21 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| before the memory cartel, I was automatically putting in 64 or 128GB for my work flow as the prices just seems absurd not to. |
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| ▲ | qurren a day ago | parent | prev [-] |
| I would absolutely love if some startup came up right now to manufacture and sell RAM at normal prices to everyone else and put Crucial et al out of business for price-gouging everyone just because they can. |
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| ▲ | Analemma_ a day ago | parent [-] | | DRAM fabs are multi-billion dollar investments which take years to come online. That's the whole reason we're in this situation, there is no quick fix available. | | |
| ▲ | matheusmoreira 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Surely the chinese are spinning up fabs as we speak? | | |
| ▲ | fhars 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | DDR4, and from some comments I have seen around here of only marginally acceptable reliability. It may still take a few years if until they have all the production processes fully under control. |
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| ▲ | hobojojo a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | China is making central decisions for its RAM makers (and who can complain now that the US isn't a legitimate free trade defender). I think their strategy could go in any direction to either get a small portion of still gouging or a large portion of a market with somewhat stale specs. |
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