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ChrisMarshallNY 5 hours ago

> inability to say no

One word that few wealthy people ever hear, is “No.” It has a pretty significant effect on their worldview. Even the most reasonable, well-informed, well-intentioned, wealthy folks can have their thinking affected.

When every silly, should-be-smothered-in-the-crib idea gets enthusiastically endorsed by your entourage, it’s easy to lose the ability to self-regulate. I’ve watched it happen, numerous times, as acquaintances and friends have become more successful.

Obsequious LLMs are leveling the field. Less wealthy folks now have the chance to lose their ability to self-regulate, just like rich folks.

bko 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Your image is wealthy people is cartoonish. Sure if you go to a high end place they'll try to meet every one of your demands. But chances are is you're very wealthy you're running a business or group of people, and you'll hit obstacles constantly. I've watched this happen multiple times. Internally there are sycophants but when you deal with the real world and try to get deals done, people don't owe you anything.

tcp_handshaker 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

>> Your image is wealthy people is cartoonish.

In the meanwhile, we can all publicly see how the the billionaires and trillionaires, behave and settle their priorities exactly, in the cartoonish way you are dismissing.

- The incredible insecurity and constant need for personal validation.

- The absurd and obsessive pursue of further wealth when it would be temporally impossible to even spend 1% of their current capital.

- The extreme level of cowardice, where an auto plant worker, can call out the powers to be, the pedophile protectors that they are. At the same time, only Jensen Huang did not submit itself, to the humiliation of standing behind face and front at the presidential inauguration...

hnbad 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Given the state of ... well, everything ... it still surprises me when people pretend there's some level of modesty or decorum the rich and powerful still need to abide by at the risk of some sort of popular revolt. I guess it's a way to compensate for the material powerlessness most people actually experience (especially in politics), much like the handwringing over the Second Amendment in the US as if merely handing a town full of ordinary people guns is sufficient to defeat a modern military. Sure, it looks like nowadays you can do that with a stockpile of low budget drones because even the military industrial complex has found a way to optimize for profit by literally delivering nothing in return for extracting the lion's share of the federal budget, but even that still requires actual work like planning, training and organizing with sufficient political motivation, not just going to the range or "hunting".

The expectation of a need for decorum against all evidence almost seems like a quaint remnant of the aristocracy at this point. There's no advantage to being a nice or sensible person if you're a billionaire. People talk about "business" like it's still the 1800s and billionaires are the factory owners. The real economy (i.e. anything involving any pretense of being an exchange of goods and services in any shape or form) is now a minute fraction of the global economy. Everything else is finance. And if the nature of the finance "industry" wasn't obvious enough the US has given up all pretense to the point that members of the US government now intentionally manipulate online betting "markets" directly.

You may have needed some table manners to be able to run a tincan factory. You can let your entire ass hang out on TV 24/7 and still be a billionaire today. And people will still cheer you on like you're the inventor of sliced bread.

broken-kebab 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I guess you don't observe those billionaires yourself. Is it possible the cartoonish image you assume to be obvious comes through media channels and your societal bubble layers?

GPerson an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Can we all agree the owner of X is a cartoonish goof?

an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]
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root-parent 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

HN must be the only place on the web where billionaires are propped up. 98% of you, are already in the SQL result set, of the next layoffs at your big five...

losvedir an hour ago | parent | next [-]

"If it's worth your time to say something false, it's worth my time to correct it". I don't take a stance on who is right, but your dismissal here, which doesn't deal with the truth of the matter, is worse than both.

broken-kebab an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There's literally nothing in my previous commentary which "props up" anyone. The layoffs mention suggests that as someone who may lose job I must support anything said against billionaires whether correct or not. I sincerely urge you to re-visit your position cause putting political statements above facts amounts to dumbing down oneself, with a potential to become an enthusiastic koolaid drinker if you see what I mean.

vlyan an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

the irony of you getting your panties in a bunch over being disagreed with is simply delightful. not so different than those pesky billionaires, are you?

rowanG077 44 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

Big difference between propping up and trying to correct an extremely naive and childish view someone has about rich people.

root-parent 14 minutes ago | parent [-]

Your opinion is not an argument, every scientific study proving you are wrong demonstrates the truth:

Maybe UC Berkeley is good enough for you?

"Upper Class More Likely to Be Scofflaws Due to Greed, Study Finds" - https://vcresearch.berkeley.edu/news/upper-class-more-likely...

"Does money make you mean?" - https://youtu.be/bJ8Kq1wucsk?t=311

"Wealth and the inflated self: class, entitlement, and narcissism" - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23963971/

"Multiple studies show that drivers of expensive, luxury cars are significantly less likely to yield to pedestrians at crosswalks and more prone to committing traffic violations compared to drivers of budget-friendly vehicles" - https://www.ralphaschwartzpc.com/blog/study-luxury-car-drive...

"Polish millionaire apologizes after snatching signed hat from child at US Open" - https://abc7ny.com/post/video-goes-viral-polish-millionaire-...

Who is naive here?

wizzwizz4 an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Elon Musk runs his own media channel, which he uses to depict himself like this. Many others are run by other billionaires. State-owned media like the BBC and France24 tends to paint them in a better light, perhaps out of a desire to treat their subjects charitably and without bias.

YurgenJurgensen an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

This “billionaires couldn’t spend their money” thing comes up a lot, and it show’s a child’s idea of what people might spend money on. “$1000 a month buys more ice cream than I can eat and more toy cars than anyone can play with, and I don’t want anything other than ice cream and toy cars, so nobody needs more than $1000 a month.”

I can think of loads of things I’d do with hundreds of millions of dollars of disposable income. Make large buildings that look like how I think buildings should look, fund scientific research in areas I’m personally interested in but have little aptitude for, find artists that align with my tastes and give them the ability to realise their visions, contribute to political organisations and charities that align with my values, et cetera. Those all are basically infinite money sinks.

In the past, the ultra-wealthy did do all of these things, funding loss-making research and expeditions, monumental architecture, philanthropic organisation and artistic works. The problem might be that you think billionaires shouldn’t do some or all of these things, but that is a very different position than that they can’t do any of these things.

hnbad 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

People misuse the term "wealthy" to refer to whatever is in their head at the time. I think GP's point stands if you consider "wealthy" to mean "billionaires". Sure, people like Bezos or Musk get to hear "no" quite frequently but they don't take kindly to it and they can usually offload "getting around it" to other people.

The point is less that these people are surrounded by "yes-men" but more that wealth (especially when measured in billions) is power and with sufficient power it becomes easy to forego any question of consent, let alone of whether consent is coerced or not. Remember that power is ultimately about the ability to enact violence and violence can take many forms, most of which are perfectly legal (because the legal system itself exists to regulate how, by who and against whom violence can be used).

You tend to hear "no" a lot less when you always point a gun at the head of the persons you're asking. Note that "wealth" isn't the only way to get there but a certain level of it is usually necessary to get to the point where other options become available - and some of the ways are a lot riskier in the long term (cf. Epstein).

Side note: this is also why I hate the pseudo-intellectual counter argument against "billionaires" of "that doesn't mean they have billions of dollars sitting in a bank account" - it's like arguing that De Beers didn't benefit much from holding a quasi-monopoly on natural diamonds because the diamonds would be devalued if they flooded the market with the ones they had intentionally kept off the market to drive up value: beyond a certain amount money ceases to be about liquidity and starts being about leverage. Unless you happen to be dealing with lower level bureaucracy in Russia, the most efficient way to use wealth to your advantage isn't to just hand people stacks of dollar bills.

47282847 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I’ve found that it’s the opposite. Most people above a certain financial wealth will learn the lesson that there are limits, and that “if only I had the money to…” is an illusion. They realize that there are other forms of wealth that may even be more important than money. What you are talking about is the very few who seem too far gone to be able to get that.

3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
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phyzix5761 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

What net worth threshold do you consider wealthy?

throw0101a 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> What net worth threshold do you consider wealthy?

When you start having 'people'. ("Have your people call my people.")

A broader discussion on the spectrum of wealth:

* https://ofdollarsanddata.com/the-wealth-ladder/

* https://ofdollarsanddata.com/the-ideal-level-of-wealth/

ChrisMarshallNY 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I don't know. It probably varies. SV wealthy is quite different from Appalachia wealthy. It's that point, where people start worshipping your money. Some wealthy folks also make a point of showing off their wealth, so it starts earlier, for them.

Also power. You see the same thing happen with managers that dismiss criticism, and have the power to make it stick.

dsr_ 3 hours ago | parent [-]

The specifics are certainly cultural and locally relative, but Marx nailed it when he talked about ownership of the means of production, rather than being part of the production of goods and services.

The reason that the ultrawealthy behave like toddlers is that toddlers are, relatively speaking, ultrawealthy: all their needs are met without any effort on their part, and so many of their desires are fulfilled simply by expressing those desires out loud that any impediment or refusal is obviously enemy action.

2 hours ago | parent [-]
[deleted]
usrusr 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Steering towards a world full of picket fence Putins. One more reason to envy those born early enough to have lived most of their lives before..

xyzelement 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I would extend your thinking to any well intentioned folks being very capable of having their "thinking" affected.

For example poor people who have never thought about rising out of it - eg about 50% of kids in my Brooklyn public highschool had parents who didn't give a shit if the kids studied or not. Completely oblivious to how the world works - meanwhile the other 50% wa immigrants who pushed their kids and those kids are now in the 1%.

In general I think what's more telling than your level is your journey. Someone born rich maybe mirrors what you described (I don't know people like that) but the few centi-millionaires and billionaires I "know" (ie worked for and dealt with in that context) have encountered plenty of "no".

When you are building a company, you are going to get a lot of no. No I won't buy, no I won't work for you, no I won't invest in you. In fact I would say a universal attribute of someone who has "made it" is having ample of experience getting "no" and dealing with that fact property. That's true even like at the level that plenty oh HN readers are - a successful faang employee and the like.

For what its worth - I generally find that orienting to what some other group is like "rich people are like x etc" is a tell-tale of not focusing on what's within ones sphere of control and knew life. Any brain cell I spend fantasizing about someone else's imagined behavior is a brain cell not dedicated to engaging soberly with my own reality.

3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
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altmanaltman 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think you're confusing two things. A chatbot keeps talking because it creates engagement and just saying "i dont know" or "no" kills the engagement so naturally one would assume it is trained to always try to provide some sort of an answer and try to keep the user engaged.

But that doesn't mean it will do whatever you ask it. Ask Chatgpt to assisinate someone or buy drugs and it will tell you to f off. But what corrupts people, is these kind of things, where you are a mini king beyond ethics and morals.

Thats a different kind of "inablity to say no".

budsniffer952 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Chatbots say "no" or "I don't know" all the time, so once again I feel like the anti-AI crew don't actually use it.

ChrisMarshallNY 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I think that it depends on which bot, and how they are set up.

It's been a while, but I remember changing a setting on mine, so it is less sycophantic.

Mine says "I don't know," frequently, and also suggests against ideas.

But it also confidently states complete garbage, much more frequently. I have to stay on my toes.

Topfi an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Greatly varies by the model, but such a flat denial along with calling those with (verifiably accurate [0]) experiences which happen to be different from yours "the anti-AI crew" and just assuming they can't possible use LLMs and couldn't possibly have formed their opinions on evidence, well, says a lot.

LLMs, even frontier models by major providers, still have no reliable internalised way to assess the accuracy of their output and they have, do and will continue to for the foreseeable future, lead people down paths they shouldn't [1], partly by their architecture and the limits of the technology, partly by an intent for maximising retention.

For what it's worth on people, I have, both in politics and business, unfortunately made the painful discovery that, whether intentional (because the powerful person in question cannot or doesn't want to deal with different opinions to their own) or unintentionally (because those with sycophantic tendencies simply managed to manipulate themselves into their inner circle over years and became trusted), there are people in (financial, political or other types of) power which are surrounded by few willing to tell them when they are wrong and even fewer that are actually listened to if push comes to shove, which often affects the personality and mental health of said powerful people negatively, to the detriment of society, their family, their employees, etc.

Members of the media are actually complicity. I very much disagree that the media presents obscenely powerful people in too negative a light, more the opposite. Am very firm that, to retain access to the rich, powerful and famous, there is far too much sane-washing of utterly ridiculous, unacceptable, harmful and/or dangerous behaviour. Sometimes the person in questions own health and safety are put at risk, because neither the people around them, nor public opinion or reporting treat their behaviour in the way appropriate. Sometimes this again leads to harm for the public, their family, those working under them, etc.

What'd get someone with less power or in a lower tax bracket ridiculed or even sectioned is often reported as "eccentricities", just being "passionate about a topic" and trying to do the "marketing rounds".

[0] https://artificialanalysis.ai/?omniscience=omniscience-hallu...

[1] https://arxiv.org/html/2602.19141v1

ChrisMarshallNY 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I suspect that you're correct, but the end result is the same.

budsniffer952 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[flagged]

afavour 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I don’t think it would be a positive if every time someone said “wealthy” they had to add “relative to their country’s average earnings and level of savings”. It’s implied.

If someone is struggling to afford a home, “you know there are much poorer people in Africa” isn’t a particularly helpful or useful response.

xg15 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I also think this is why LLMs were trained to behave the way they do. The people who gave the training objectives and evaluation targets were exactly those rich folks who never hear "no". Hence LLMs are their dreams of a perfect servant.

I found another sign of that is the way LLMs answer with a professional, business-like tone even if the request is completely bananas. It's what a concierge or butler would do, but not an actual close friend.