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onraglanroad 3 days ago

It would be great if it works out, but I believe this treatment has been suspended in China as there are mixed results (ie people have ended up worse).

Being from Scotland I'd trust an NHS evaluation more than random news reports.

Jensson 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

But that would suggest that this cures some form of Alzheimer's but not all forms.

If your Alzheimer's is caused by poor drainage due to a one off blockage this would solve it completely, but if its due to something else this would probably just be temporary as the article notes.

HarHarVeryFunny 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Alzheimer's is so devastating that I can't blame people for being willing to give it a go even if it's an experimental treatment.

The government shouldn't be in the business of telling people what they can do, or have done, to their own bodies.

azan_ 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

Government absolutely should tell people what they could do to some degree - vulnerable people are very prone to being scammed.

forestrywat 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Alzheimer's is tricky. The person who is consenting to the procedure may not be the person in the OR. And both parties are vulnerable to scams and snake oil. This procedure needs studies, so there's a clear rate of success we can understand and communicate.

BeetleB 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> The government shouldn't be in the business of telling people what they can do, or have done, to their own bodies.

But they absolutely should be in the business of licensing and controlling claims you make as a professional.

If you're someone who is performing this procedure and not making claims of medical benefits based on your license, I can see the arguments for allowing it. The flip side is you lose some of the legal protections you get as this is not a medically sanctioned procedure. Let the family sue you for the harm you may have caused and the department of justice arrest you for any lives that may be lost.

Aurornis 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Unfortunately those devastating conditions are exactly where the grifters prey upon people. Some of the people pushing the treatments aren’t grifters in the traditional sense, but they are so invested in the idea of becoming famous for having cured a difficult disease that they lose objectivity and can’t admit when their treatment isn’t working.

There is a lot of history in this. Cancer and autism communities have fallen victim to these schemes as far back as those conditions have been recognized. Every year there is a new batch of researchers who claim they’ve found a cure but the government meanies are preventing them from curing the whole world. They generate a lot of false hope, take a lot of money from desperate patients, and then fade into obscurity after the communities realize nobody is actually getting cured by these treatments.

This happens in every condition where there is not yet a good medical treatment. Long COVID is a good example of a recent condition where hundreds of doctors have claimed to have invented new treatments. They generate a lot of headlines, collect a lot of money from desperate patients before everyone realizes the cure isn’t working, and then they abandon their cure like it never existed.

This is why governments regulate these things. If you assume all of the treatments might work, it seems cruel for governments to get in the way. If you look at the history of how this plays out, they almost never actually have any substance behind them. It’s almost 100% grift or researchers who can’t admit when they’re wrong.

locallost 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The counterargument I heard recently is that what if doing something with your body ends up causing harm to others. E.g. you suddenly lose the ability to drive coherently. I agree everyone should do whatever they want, but if you drive drunk you're guilty because you should've known better, it's impossible to get a driver's license and not know you're not allowed to drive drunk. But if you do something experimental and are not aware you are no longer capable of driving, are you really at fault? And even if yes, is it that satisfying someone goes to jail considering maybe it would be better if a family of four in the other car is still alive.

Real life is more complicated.

HarHarVeryFunny 3 days ago | parent [-]

We're not talking about a world that only has one law "you can do what you like with your own body".

Other laws still exist too.

Owning pillows is legal. Killing people is not legal. Just because owning a pillow is legal doesn't mean you can smother someone to death with it.

I would hope that someone diagnosed with a mental disorder such as Alzheimers would lose their drivers license (not sure if this is the case), but if they were subsequently cured and passed a new driving test, then would you have a problem with that?

locallost 2 days ago | parent [-]

I don't know why you're giving me the pillow example, when it's the exact thing I discuss. You know you are not supposed to drive drunk. You know a drug you get from the doctor has side effects, the doctor will warn you. Those things are enough for most people not to take their chances, for people stupid enough to drive drunk, throw the book at them.

You can throw the book at people taking any experimental drug that can have a gazillion side effects they have no clue about, but this doesn't help the people that might get killed because someone experimented with a cure, did not want to harm anyone but still did. People are not numbers, but real parts of the world and someone else's lives. Laws are there to keep people safe, but are just the last line of defense.

You can take both positions, but your argument is overly simplistic.

2 days ago | parent | next [-]
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HarHarVeryFunny 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I've have no idea what point you are trying to make. You appear to be attacking some strawman position of your own making, but the lack of logic and connection to what is being discussed is so vague that it is honestly hard to tell.

I gave the pillow example because it clearly shows how ridiculous it is to link things like this together. Your arguing that people should be denied experimental Alzheimers surgery because (paraphrasing) "maybe they'll feel cured, but won't be, and will kill someone in a car accident" (WTF?!), is no different to arguing that people should not be allowed to buy pillows because they might use them to smother someone.

Making laws against killing or endangering others (driving impaired, etc) is fine and desirable. Using the need for such laws to apparently try to make a case for banning experimental surgery is absurd.

locallost 2 days ago | parent [-]

No, I specifically referenced side effects of taking medication. In this case experimental medication which means we don't even know what all the side effects are.

OutOfHere 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

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lostlogin 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> I believe this treatment has been suspended in China

And the surgeon is in prison according to the article.

BeetleB 3 days ago | parent [-]

For reasons that may have nothing to do with the topic at hand.

OutOfHere 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

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onraglanroad 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

I didn't make it up, I found it in the articles explaining why the treatment had been suspended in China.

You need to think more.

OutOfHere 3 days ago | parent [-]

[flagged]

forestrywat 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

Even if you are right, you are using the tone of a conspiracist. You are this close to posting, "They don't want you to know!"

Maybe dial it back a bit? You can be firm in your opinions and have more success in convincing others if you avoid vaguely worded accusations and the like.

OutOfHere 3 days ago | parent [-]

Some conspiracies are true. There are billions on the line. Why is it so hard to see?

forestrywat 3 days ago | parent [-]

You aren't helping your case. You type like someone who puts pictures up on their wall with red string between them.

I don't think a conspiracy is necessary here. Three factors are at play:

1) It needs research. That takes a long time. 2) If its successful and good, the effects need to be studied in patients for years to understand the long term impact 3) Capitalism is going to try and optimize for profit, not for welfare. Which is the point you are making, except... it's not conspiratorial. Capital absolutely is out in the open about this.

OutOfHere 2 days ago | parent [-]

That is missing the point. The underlying biological mechanism is rock solid. Engineering is needed to make the procedure less invasive, and to do it well enough to produce results.

It won't help the underlying AD pathology, but it's a workaround to mitigate some of the harm. It should in principle work better if done early before large deposits form in the brain.

> Capitalism is going to try and optimize for profit

This in no way allows spreading falsities and FUD about competitive prospects. It is not excusable.

forestrywat 2 days ago | parent [-]

If the two points you've posted are true, point me to some replicated studies that say so.

lightedman 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

No, you lie and provide nothing to this conversation.

Literally in the article which you clearly only skimmed and did not READ "Hong is now running his own trial in South Korea and says that he is finding the same spectacular gains in some individuals, although not in everyone."

That's very much mixed results.

OutOfHere 3 days ago | parent [-]

Of course a filter is needed to determine the right candidates. It is so for any surgery. You have nothing original to add.

jtbayly 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

FTA: "anecdotally at least, several clinicians say they’ve heard from colleagues in China that the majority of individuals backslide within a year of surgery, echoing broader concerns that any gains might not last."

OutOfHere 3 days ago | parent [-]

The surgery doesn't address the underlying Alzheimers pathology. It just buys time. It's like that with a cardiac bypass or coronary stent, yet no one questions their usefulness. It could be that the science of brain and neck stenting requires similar development. This only adds to the importance of developing experience with it.

cactusplant7374 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

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