| ▲ | insanitybit 7 hours ago |
| I'll push back against this, despite it being so popular. I dislike the arbitrary "innovation tokens" and I think this entire concept really blurs the lines and feels sort of unserious. Engineers should understand requirements, risks, tradeoffs, and potential gains. New technology may be right for that. Novel approaches may be right for that. "Novel" or "New" are only proxies and they're weak. For example, I may think "New" means untested, but is that true? What if a new project has Jepsen testing, a fuzzing suite, massive compute running tons of oracle tests, etc? I should just say "Choose well tested" instead of "Choose old" - lots of old software is very poorly tested. Maybe I think that "Old" implies better documentation, but does it? Lots of older projects have insane cruft and weird edge cases that are undocumented and accumulated over years. Why do we need a metaphor? Why is "innovation token" helpful? If you're incapable of evaluating a technology in terms of these properties, you aren't a serious developer and "boring" will not save you. Sit down, write our your requirements, determine candidate solutions, and choose them based on their fit. "Boring" means nothing, it's a vague proxy term. "Well tsted", "performant for our use case", "developers know it", etc mean something. > MySQL is boring. Postgres is boring. PHP is boring. Python is boring. Memcached is boring. Squid is boring. Cron is boring. Literally every one of these has caused hilarious and disastrous failures for me in my career. But yep, boring. > If you choose to write your website in NodeJS, you just spent one of your innovation tokens. If you choose to use MongoDB, you just spent one of your innovation tokens. What if you know NodeJS really well? Or MongoDb? What if you have empirical, verifiable reasons for why they fit better? I'm a bit tired of "simple" and "boring" and other nonsense words in this field taking up the air in the room that should be spent evaluating solutions on their actual merits. |
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| ▲ | bcrosby95 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| This was written over a decade ago. I'd take it in that context. Lots of the tech they're talking about was being cargo culted en-masse. So yes, pick boring tech, defined as the tech you know the sharp edges of. |
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| ▲ | insanitybit 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | I don't think that context is relevant to my comment. I didn't say "in hindsight, those technologies are great!", I pointed out that "boring" is meaningless, and any meaning you attribute to it like "defined as the tech you know the sharp edges of" is better substituted in. That is, if someone said two sentences, I would only care about the second one: 1. "We should use this because it is boring" 2. "We should use this because we understand the sharp edges" I wouldn't care at all about (1) and I'd have a real conversation based on (2). Any productive conversation that starts with (1) immediately has to follow "can you clarify what that means", so the term is useless at best and thought terminating at worst. | | |
| ▲ | tp3358 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | Isn't this somewhat semantical? Boring implies a lot of the things you said, especially if it means your team's experience is largely pooled in a particular dev environment. Assuming most boring tech is ubiquitous, it's probably rare that your team, statistically, is deeply literate in some obscure tech - they most likely are experts in some definition of "boring". TLDR; #1 and #2 are essentially implying the same thing. | | |
| ▲ | dwattttt 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | insanitybit's point is that "boring" can imply those things, but it can imply other things too. If you have to bring the correct context to make the word make sense, and there's other contexts that could apply that don't make sense, the word isn't helping. You bringing the correct context is doing the heavy lifting. | | |
| ▲ | tp3358 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | I guess context clues and the way the post was written had obvious implications - that was my point. I do understand it leaves a little open to interpretation, which is the angle he decided to comment on. |
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| ▲ | i_like_robots 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I see innovation as a guardrail against CV driven development. More, I think you need to consider the context of when this was written. It was a period of rapid innovation/evolution - I remember more than a handful of projects failing (either undelivered or rewritten well under their expected lifecycle) around this time because teams had taken bets on new tech either they didn't know how to use well or the tech didn't take off and was a dead end. > What if you know NodeJS really well? Then you consider it boring. I'm sure Node and MongoDB were singled out by the author because at the time of writing they were still relatively new and undergoing periods of rapid development and change. |
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| ▲ | insanitybit 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | CV driven development is just as well guarded against by asking someone to justify their technical decisions based on the requirements and how the solution meets them. So "boring" does nothing to further that. > More, I think you need to consider the context of when this was written. It was a period of rapid innovation/evolution It's linked today, people feel it's relevant today. This isn't a historic piece about how the tech industry used to be, people reference this post today. > around this time because teams had taken bets on new tech either they didn't know how to use well or the tech didn't take off and was a dead end. Yes, they should have had a discussion about their requirements and which technologies would have solved them. > Then you consider it boring. Then "boring" is useless and you should just say "I know this technology well and it maps to our use case well" and be able to justify that. | | |
| ▲ | jonahx 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > CV driven development is just as well guarded against by asking someone to justify their technical decisions based on the requirements and how the solution meets them. So "boring" does nothing to further that. It doesn't though. It's very easy to manufacture reasons why "shiny new thing" is the objectively right fit for something, even when it's not. The word "boring" is well-chosen because it's addressing a bias most engineers have towards the interesting and new. It's a reminder: that fun new tech you really want to try here may not be, probably isn't, the cold-hearted best choice, if you're being practical and business-minded. | |
| ▲ | i_like_robots 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | You seem to agree with the lecture/article but disagree with the title. However, it's influenced a lot of people for more than a decade and the snippy title might well have something to do with that. | | |
| ▲ | insanitybit 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | I don't agree with the article though and I dislike the influence it has had. I have seen engineers use "Boring" to justify "I know this technology" for situations where that technology is a bad fit. Conversations about technical solutions are bespoke, there is no one term that can or should be used to guide them. | | |
| ▲ | i_like_robots 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | Poor choices whether influenced by this article or engineers chasing CV points are no different. Boring technology is a tool or communication device like any other. I hope in your situation you were able to influence the engineers utilising it poorly to reconsider. |
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| ▲ | mr_toad 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | My recollection is that MongoDB was based on CouchDB, except they dispensed with Erlang & JSON and went with more conventional technology. |
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| ▲ | dzonga 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I will say one of my career regrets was kinda being dogmatic about boring tech instead of being pragmatic e.g with new tech there was a period around 2016-17s when people were building stuff with Node.js | Mongo. but it was risky tech though I had experience in it & turned some of those opportunities down cz I wanted to work with boring ruby/swift(iOS stuff) lol. rookie mistake. fortunately the market made me wise up - you go where you're wanted. |
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| ▲ | marcosdumay 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > For example, I may think "New" means untested, but is that true? The article answers this, and the answer is "no". New technology is one you don't know the details of. > determine candidate solutions, and choose them based on their fit That's quite hard to do for solutions that you don't know the details. You have an objection to something. It's clearly not to the article's point, though. |
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| ▲ | insanitybit 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | > That's quite hard to do for solutions that you don't know the details. That's a great thing to discuss when deciding on the technology. Maybe you should aim for solutions that you know well, or a solution that makes migrating away easy, or maybe you need to do some discovery work, etc. > You have an objection to something. It's clearly not to the article's point, though. It's an objection to the nature of the article itself - that technical decisions should work this way, that metaphors like "innovation tokens" are useful, that "boring" is a good proxy word. |
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| ▲ | bravura 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| "boring" means familiar. It should have more known unknowns than unknown unknowns. |
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| ▲ | insanitybit 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | So then say that. | | |
| ▲ | Gormo 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The article does say that. Explicitly. It's even got a picture of Donald Rumsfeld to help drive the point home. | |
| ▲ | geodel 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Well its understood. Maybe your definition of explicitness is only met by things written like Principia Mathematica. | | |
| ▲ | insanitybit 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | If it's understood then it's pointless. I also reject that it's understood. I have no idea why you're talking about Prinicipia Mathematica as if I'm advocating for some sort of formal verification or extraordinary rigor as opposed to my suggestion that people just use their words and have reasons behind their decisions. |
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| ▲ | geodel 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Well your points are making sense in isolation whereas this article is making more sense in general. > I'm a bit tired of "simple" and "boring" and other nonsense words in this field... This is hilarious in sense millions more will be tired and exhausted by evaluating new and exciting technology endlessly appearing all the time. People go by these rule of thumbs which may not be perfect in every single case but they do increase success chances for even sub-par teams as opposed to "rigorously evaluating latest technology" |
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| ▲ | insanitybit 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | I don't think it's exhausting to determine if a solution fits your requirements and I don't think much about the people who would find it exhausting. I'm not suggesting some insane formal verification, but you really can't just answer basic questions about how technologies can address problems? Then what is your role? To choose mysql irrespective of requirements? > People go by these rule of thumbs which may not be perfect in every single case but they do increase success chances for even sub-par teams as opposed to "rigorously evaluating latest technology" Rule of thumb. And it's not a rule. It's a bias based on a vague term. | | |
| ▲ | geodel 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | Well mysql likely will turnout to be better choice than choosing "Cloud scale nosql DBs" when evaluators have rather limited hands-on knowledge about either of them. | | |
| ▲ | insanitybit 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Well mysql likely will turnout to be better choice than choosing "Cloud scale nosql DBs" when evaluators have rather limited hands-on knowledge about either of them. Obviously a straw-man, but also... justify it then? That's the point. You should be able to justify your position. "Cloud scale nosql db" doesn't tell me why you shouldn't choose it. |
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| ▲ | simonw 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > What if you know NodeJS really well? Or MongoDb? Then they're not boring. Boring isn't a universal trait, it has to be evaluated within the context of your own team. |
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| ▲ | insanitybit 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | Then it's useless. If I have to take the context into account then I should be prepared to have a conversation about the requirements and how the technology fits it, which "boring" does not facilitate (and discourages). | | |
| ▲ | simonw 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | Weird take. It's clearly useful as a communication tool. You talk to your team, you say "Let's use boring technology. Read the essay, then we can discuss what boring technology means to us first." | | |
| ▲ | insanitybit 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | I obviously don't agree that it's useful as a communication tool though. Why not "Use the technology that's appropriate for our use case"? That seems radically better and doesn't suffer from weird misinterpretations or vague terms. | | |
| ▲ | simonw 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | Because people LOVE COMING UP with excuses to try a new technology under the basis that "this is appropriate for our use-case", and if you don't introduce a concept similar to innovation tokens you may find that six months later your project is combining three different unproven new technologies and doesn't actually work yet. Encouraging your team to be selective in where they place their new bets - and use "boring" aka already-understood technology for the bits that are not going to help solve unique problems - can help avoid expensive mistakes. | | |
| ▲ | jason_oster 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | It does happen, but having the ability to pivot quickly is almost always more valuable than dealing with "the devil you know". There is nothing wrong with evaluating something new and discovering it doesn't work out as expected. That's still a meaningful outcome. Try it, if it doesn't work, replace it. You've learned something in the process, and it's a mistake you won't make again. At some point you have to trust in the scientific method. The hypothesis->test->evaluate->adjust hypothesis cycle hasn't been beaten for thousands of years. |
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| ▲ | moregrist 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > I'll push back against this, despite it being so popular. I dislike the arbitrary "innovation tokens" It’s a cute way of saying that you can only do 2-3 new things. The post is written for an engineer at a startup as a reminder that although it’s green field development, you only have so much runway, so it’s better to focus on what matters instead of trying some new tech because it seems cool. If you’ve ever had to estimate your stories/tickets/etc in “story points” or “T-shirt sizes” then “innovation tokens” is roughly the same. If you haven’t had to do that, you’ve lived a charmed life. > Engineers should understand requirements, risks, tradeoffs, and potential gains. Ideally. But I’ve worked with plenty of engineers who get far too excited by shiny new tech and overvalue its potential while undervaluing its risk. Hell, I’ve been that engineer in my misspent youth. The post resonates with many of us because it describes hard-won wisdom of our mistakes. > New technology may be right for that. Novel approaches may be right for that. "Novel" or "New" are only proxies and they're weak. Yeah maybe, but unless you’re working on a problem that the tech directly solves, it’s pretty unlikely. > What if you know NodeJS really well? Or MongoDb? What if you have empirical, verifiable reasons for why they fit better? In 2015, MongoDB was a dumpster fire (which is still kind of true) and node.js was still kind of new and had enough rough edges that most teams were probably better off choosing some other language/framework. > I'm a bit tired of "simple" and "boring" and other nonsense words in this field taking up the air in the room that should be spent evaluating solutions on their actual merits. “Boring” and “simple” are ways to convey that it’s good to be risk averse. It’s a bit of rhetorical flourish that helps drive the point home: choose what you work on carefully because you have limited runway and should spend that runway working on the problems that matter for your business, not new tech that’s orthogonal to it. |
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| ▲ | frrlpp 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| You are confusing software with technology. Choose boring technology, not choose old software. |
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| ▲ | dwattttt 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| It's the "don't eat processed food" of software engineering. |