| ▲ | raincole 2 hours ago |
| > One of this year’s AI buzzwords is “harness”—the system that surrounds an LLM to keep agents on the straight and narrow. It might just as well be barbed wire. Quite painful to read. It might be a useful introduction to AI for people who live under rocks for the past three years, but it's really weird that it's posted on HN. |
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| ▲ | jstummbillig 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| There is value in understanding what people outside of your own group of "insiders" learn about a topic, and how. |
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| ▲ | hombre_fatal an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I don't get what's so painful about that description. What would you write instead, specifically? The point is that the harness doesn't completely lock the agent down. I also don't get what's "really weird" about the article showing up on HN. Should we be completely insulated from how tech topics and which stories show up in non-tech media? |
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| ▲ | LEDThereBeLight an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | It’s just the wrong analogy. Harnesses, for the most part, extend an agent’s capabilities and better ground them in the real world through tools and the ability to check external sources, rather than restricting them. | | |
| ▲ | hombre_fatal an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Yet one of the reasons harnesses abstract tool calls is to control what agents can do instead of just yoloing commands and inline python scripts. It's such a central feature, and agents are so hard to control, that harnesses like claude code and codex use an AI classifier to additionally auto-approve tool calls. | |
| ▲ | victorbjorklund an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It’s both. A harness that enforces valid json to be returned ”restricts” the model. | |
| ▲ | ohyes an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Okay but is that a relatable sound bite that will make someone click a link? No. |
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| ▲ | an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | dymk an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Because that’s not what a harness does. It’s nonsense. | | |
| ▲ | hombre_fatal an hour ago | parent [-] | | It's one of the things it does, especially in the context of agents doing unexpected things. | | |
| ▲ | Aozora7 an hour ago | parent [-] | | Consider what someone who doesn't use AI would take away reading that quote from the article, and what harnesses were actually made for. | | |
| ▲ | hombre_fatal an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | > Consider what someone who doesn't use AI would take away reading that quote from the article, and what harnesses were actually made for. Or you could just communicate the point that you have in your head yourself instead of hoping I do it for you and then arrive at your conclusion when I just reached my own different, independent conclusion after making the same consideration. Man, how is everyone so wishy washy on this subject? Why not give us the blurb you would write instead for that article and audience? | | |
| ▲ | bonoboTP 23 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Without a harness, all an LLM can do is output text tokens. Nothing else. It's the harness that allows it to read a file, write a file, run commands, start subagents. But even a simple chat application would need a harness, because something has to take the input from the user, mark it up that it's a user message, then parse the LLM's generated tokens and display the message content, or diplay a referenced image inline, or whatnot. All of this is independent of any kind of safety or filtering of naughtiness. | |
| ▲ | Aozora7 an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Harnesses exist to give models tools to do work beyond generating text. People install Claude Code and Codex to have models work inside their repositories and run the code or tests themselves instead of the user having to copypaste code between their IDE and a chat interface. The fact that there's some security built into the harnesses is just a practical consideration, not its primary function. |
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| ▲ | sippeangelo an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | The harness gives the model the barbed wire fence but also the bolt cutters. I think it's a pretty apt analogy. | | |
| ▲ | bonoboTP 18 minutes ago | parent [-] | | The main role of the harness is not any kind of moderation or alignment, but simply making a text generation engine do anything other than output a long stream of text. It's like saying that the role of a car's wheel is to hold wheel clamps. Yes, you can put wheel clamps (or snow chains etc) on a wheel, but the wheel's overwhelming role is to rotate and propel the car forward, and there is no driving without having wheels, you just have an engine with parts rotating inside. Bad analogy I know but, a harness is not a safety feature. Imagine that you're trying to explain cars to someone who has never seen one and you never say that the wheel's purpose is to rotate and move the car from A to B, you just say that it's something to put chains on when it snows. I guess the name sounds like some kind of straightjacket etc. But think of it more as the harness you put on a workhorse or ox. It's the thing that connects it to the workload in the first place. They are not the blinders of the horse. |
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| ▲ | altcognito an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It's not even a useful introduction. A harness does kinda the opposite. A harness is what makes an AI useful and dangerous. It is a neutral tool in the sense that it constructs and environment, but it is expanding what the algorithm can do. It gives the algorithm the ability to do something beyond generating tokens. |
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| ▲ | binarymax 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| And while writing this, the top story on HN is "Deepseek Harness" :) |
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| ▲ | cwbuilds 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Ironically, that looks like something Claude would write.. |
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| ▲ | someothherguyy an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_harness |
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| ▲ | summarybot 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| it's The Economist. What used to be a stellar publication is not any longer, since they are superfluously economical on both details and calories-required-to-comprehend an article. |
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| ▲ | gruez 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | I mean, it's a < 1000 word article about AI, in the "business" section of a current affairs magazine, of all places. You really shouldn't be expecting a deep dive. | | |
| ▲ | andsoitis an hour ago | parent [-] | | The economist has many deep dives on AI, including fascinating interviews with the likes of Amodei, Musk, and others. A recent discussion focused on how China is approaching AI. |
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| ▲ | timmmmmmay 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I'm sure their coverage on other topics is truthful and informative though and it's only the ones where you know a lot about the topic where it's all a bunch of bullshit |
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| ▲ | Loughla 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The first time I saw the comments here on an education article (my area of expertise and career focus), I realized just how full of shit most of us are. It made me really closely consider every comment here through a VERY critical lense. The articles are usually close but not quite accurate. The comments are usually entertaining but overall wildly inaccurate. | | |
| ▲ | mvcosta91 an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Internet comments are essentially documented bar talk, and once you realize it, you stop angrily arguing with strangers all day. | |
| ▲ | datakan 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The best comments are the ones formed as questions. I'm as guilty as anyone, but it is far more productive in comment sections to ask questions rather than saber rattle or peacock in front of people. Just my opinion of course. | | | |
| ▲ | 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | embedding-shape 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Not saying you aren't right, you most likely are. But still, I'd expect a paper called "The Economist" to perhaps be slightly better at some topics than others. Probably from the perspective of a "A Economist" it doesn't really matter the technical details, they're interested in the story from a different perspective. | |
| ▲ | ls612 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | That sentence is not bullshit as normies would understand it. One of the points of a harness is to have a privilege boundary around the agent. But that is just technobabble to the normies so they explain it like this. | | |
| ▲ | 27183 an hour ago | parent [-] | | > harness ... a privilege boundary around the agent They don't really do that though. If you want something sandboxed you actually have to sandbox it, not plead with the LLM to please sandbox itself. A VM can be configured to do the former, harnesses do the latter. | | |
| ▲ | ls612 an hour ago | parent [-] | | If you say in your CLAUDE.MD that a certain directory is read only inputs, Claude Code will actually enforce that and deny any write to that directory by the agent. To name just one example. | | |
| ▲ | 27183 an hour ago | parent [-] | | ...maybe. If there are any actual consequences if that software's invariants are violated you're better off using an external sandboxing mechanism. There are many excellent quality, battle tested options to choose from that you can actually rely on. Trusting claude code for this is highly questionable behavior for an organization, and would really throw the rest of their security posture into doubt IMO. Like if I learned a company was letting clod play in the same sandbox as developers' ssh keys, vpn certs, etc I'd take steps to make sure my organization absolutely never uses their software. |
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| ▲ | morkalork 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| That's a real fucking weird description. It's harness like a testing harness. |
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| ▲ | krunck 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | If an LLM were in a testing harness it would be to test the LLM. If an LLM were in a regular harness - like for a horse - it would be to keep the horse under control and enable you to extract useful work from it. | | |
| ▲ | an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | [deleted] | | | |
| ▲ | morkalork an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | The LLM harness and the testing harness are harnesses that support and run the thing. Also like an engine harness. People don't talk about those harnesses like ones for an animal being subdued. |
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| ▲ | an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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